Your line in the sand?

[lee456]

The thread about http://www.zoochat.com/158/young-orca-rescued-157674/ the rescued orca is getting a lot of views. The role of cetacean's in captivity is a prominent issue. The question that I wanted to open to an intellectual and opean debate is: are there certain Species you think shouldn't be kept in captivity and if so why?

Note this is realistically... No blue whales in a sea life center!

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The thread about http://www.zoochat.com/158/young-orca-rescued-157674/ the rescued orca is getting a lot of views. The role of cetacean's in captivity is a prominent issue. The question that I wanted to open to an intellectual and opean debate is: are there certain Species you think shouldn't be kept in captivity and if so why?

Note this is realistically... No blue whales in a sea life center!

Anything that isn't doing well breeding wise and is highly endangered and/or isn't living long. Some people might say the Sumatran Rhinoceros fits the bill for the first two but I think we've gotten better in this subject. I don't know much about Orca breeding in captivity but I'd say pretty much all cetaceans in captivity currently are doing all right. Wait, are Amazon River Dolphins still found in captivity besides for the one in Germany?

 

[elefante]

My problem with orcas and other dolphins in captivity is that the enclosures I've seen them in are usually barren, concrete pools with no enrichment. For something as intelligent as these animals, it seems that this would be like a prison.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

My problem with orcas and other dolphins in captivity is that the enclosures I've seen them in are usually barren, concrete pools with no enrichment. For something as intelligent as these animals, it seems that this would be like a prison.

This is a good point. I'd love to see a orca/dolphin/porpoise exhibit with a nice sandy bottom, some plants, maybe some compatable fish species, and some kind of rock formation that they could swim through.

 

[gentle lemur]

I don't think that current artificial environments are suitable for the long term management of cetaceans. I wouldn't rule out rescue and rehabilitation for smaller individuals, neither would I condemn all modified natural environments (fenced bays or lagoons). I may be wrong, but I doubt if it is possible to provide enough space for proper care of a suitably large social group of any species of cetacean.

Alan

 

[Shirokuma]

I don't think that current artificial environments are suitable for the long term management of cetaceans. I wouldn't rule out rescue and rehabilitation for smaller individuals, neither would I condemn all modified natural environments (fenced bays or lagoons). I may be wrong, but I doubt if it is possible to provide enough space for proper care of a suitably large social group of any species of cetacean.

Alan

My sentiments exactly. I heard a piece on this issue on the BBC Wildlife Magazine podcast (an old one) recently. A declaration on the rights of cetaceans has been written.

It asserts that "no cetacean should be held in captivity or servitude; be subject to cruel treatment; or be removed from their natural environment".

Declaration of Rights for Cetaceans: Whales and Dolphins - CetaceanRights.org

 

[HyakkoShachi]

I believe that there is no such thing as a species that we are incapable of keeping, only those which we are unwilling to keep or have not yet learned properly accommodate.

On the topic of cetaceans, all species that are currently in captivity are those that have proven to do fairly well in proper human care. Just like any higher mammal they need plenty of mental stimulation and this is not hard to provide, especially since even in the wild much of what they need mentally they get simply from interaction with other animals in their group. They also need plenty of space, but the amount needed is overstated by animal rights activists just as they overstate the needs of all species to further their agenda.

On the topic of pod sizes, in the wild numbers vary widely but in general I would say a female group should be kept a five or more, males do fine with smaller numbers. Most facilities in the civilized world that already keep cetaceans have the room for such pod sizes.

 

[stacey101]

Cetaceans cannot be stimulated in captivity, nor are they naturally happy ( they have no facial muscle to change that to a frown by the way )
Cetaceans in the wild swim 100 km+ a day! Jumping, leaping and all the breeching goodness. They frolic with family members and other species, and are self conscious like we are.

In captivity, there are no true pods in fact because of this; it creates aggression and death. Their tanks are fish bowls, and they are mentally neglected. There are no true family members in captivity, in fact many captives are totally unnatural hybreds and with the gene pool limited soon to be inbreds.

Because of all these random orcas together, their dialect is completly messed up. The tank walls ruin their clicks, echo etc.

Orcas for example in the wild can live as long as 80 years! ( oceans sun L-pod for example she is over 80! ) while in captivity they rarely reach their teens and often bred before their teens.

Orcas have their teeth painfully drilled to avoid teeth cracking from a behavior known as jaw popping, by supporting cetacean captivity you are only supporting the Taiji dolphin slaughter and abuse/neglect.

Many cetaceans are not even on record and are hidden. A popular example Junior.
(sorry, I made this video not to long ago thought itd fit nicely here )

just a few cents of my many on cetacean captivity

I will boycott cetacean facilities till the day I die.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

@stacey101- Besides for watching this, I also saw your Taiji Dolphin Drive video and I have to say that that's one of the most horrible and barbaric thing I've ever seen. 20,000+ whales and dolphins all being slaughtered for what purpose!? In the description you say cetacean meat is toxic to us. I wonder what's worst, being slaughtered or having a fate like Juniors? How did you aquire all of this video anyway? And what about those two dolphins exhibited along side Junior, their fate?

 

[HyakkoShachi]

Cetaceans cannot be stimulated in captivity, nor are they naturally happy ( they have no facial muscle to change that to a frown by the way )

There are plenty of facilities that keep their animals very well stimulated. They have their ups and downs like all higher mammals do. To Say they're always happy or always sad is ridiculous.

Cetaceans in the wild swim 100 km+ a day! Jumping, leaping and all the breeching goodness. They frolic with family members and other species, and are self conscious like we are.

Most wild animals travel further in the wild than they would in captivity, the reason for this is because they need to go where the food goes, in captivity they don't need to travel far to find food. It must be pointed out as well that sometimes a dolphin or whale will have to travel through vast, empty expanses of ocean which is much less stimulating than what they get in captivity. When they are in the mood, captive dolphins regularly breach and socialize with others. Usually with their own species, but some places do have mixed species exhibits, and some individuals enjoy interacting with their human visitors.

In captivity, there are no true pods in fact because of this; it creates aggression and death. Their tanks are fish bowls, and they are mentally neglected. There are no true family members in captivity, in fact many captives are totally unnatural hybreds and with the gene pool limited soon to be inbreds.

Cetaceans as a whole, have no one true pod structure. Most species are fairly fluid in their pod structures, both in captivity and in the wild. If a dolphin meets others that it gets along with it stays with them until it meets a new group. Orcas are slightly different with most having a more rigid structure based on a matriline, but the structures do change occasionally and they do associate with other groups from time to time. Captive animals most certainly do form family groups, some animals may leave and others may join, but this is all the same as what happens in the wild. Captive gene pools vary, with the bottlenose dolphins having the largest so far and orcas having the smallest, this isn't much of a problem, all they need is proper breeding management. When it comes down to hybrids, there actually aren't that many and it's not really all that unnatural as you can find hybrids in the wild as well.

Because of all these random orcas together, their dialect is completly messed up. The tank walls ruin their clicks, echo etc.

Their dialects are not messed up, they are simply different from the original sources. As you get animals from different populations together they inevitably learn ways to communicate with each other, thus new dialects are created. The tanks have nothing to do with it.

Orcas for example in the wild can live as long as 80 years! ( oceans sun L-pod for example she is over 80! ) while in captivity they rarely reach their teens and often bred before their teens.

Orcas in the wild do not live that much longer than captive whales actually. While there are some elderly animals in the wild, this in no way represents the species as a whole. On average females live about 40-60 years of age, males having even shorter life spans. While captive killer whales have in the past had very short lifespans, they're beginning to live longer. Most species lived shorter lives in captivity than in the wild and they began to live longer as we learned more about them. Orcas are no different. Dolphins meanwhile, already often live as long if not longer in captivity than they do in the wild in modern facilities. The age in which they get pregnant is unlikely to be different from wild whales.

Orcas have their teeth painfully drilled to avoid teeth cracking from a behavior known as jaw popping, by supporting cetacean captivity you are only supporting the Taiji dolphin slaughter and abuse/neglect.

The idea that the teeth of cetaceans are drilled into regularly is simply untrue. Also, most captive cetaceans outside of asia are not from taiji, or even recent captures. Outside of asia most captive cetaceans are either captive born or where captured elsewhere quite a while ago, no slaughter involved. Even a few Japanese facilities don't have too many animals that are recently captured from Taiji due to the increasing knowledge in how to care for them, most of Taiji's live captures go to mainland China. Taiji would still be killing dolphins and whales even if there where no wild captures anyway as capture is not their main goal. Their main goal is "pest control".

Many cetaceans are not even on record and are hidden. A popular example Junior.

There probably are cetaceans which are not on record, but most are and most facilities are fairly transparent on that issue. Junior is a popular example, but a poor one. Firstly, he was up for sale, but that is not why he was kept in isolation. Junior did not do well with others and may have had a neurological issue, he had to be separated from other whales for that reason, and at that time the isolation pool for new arrivals was the only other place they could fit a killer whale.

 

[stacey101]

@stacey101- Besides for watching this, I also saw your Taiji Dolphin Drive video and I have to say that that's one of the most horrible and barbaric thing I've ever seen.( 20,000+ whales and dolphins all being slaughtered for what purpose!? In the description you say cetacean meat is toxic to us. I wonder what's worst, being slaughtered or having a fate like Juniors? How did you aquire all of this video anyway? And what about those two dolphins exhibited along side Junior, their fate?

Japan slaughters the dolphins in Taiji for no 'real' reason now, its all about not giving up and letting their long term enemy Sea Shepherd win that part of the whaling war. The excuses Japan are using at this very time are the fallowing...
1. Pest control -- Now, this is the main reason for any unnecessary slaughter. Japan claims that the cetacean population both around Taiji and the southren ocean are the cause for the fish decline. However, Japan is the WORLDS largest fish market. Fish are always on the buyers market/floor as soon as one is sold. Thousands and thousands of fish go threw the japanese market weekly. Including the nearly extinct Blue fin tuna. Because of this, the fish stock has dramatically declined to dangerous levels. So who does Japan blame? Well, the mammels of the sea -- cetaceans. So what is their solution? murder these self-aware beings.

I remember when I was in Japan protesting and informing the public the 'fishermen' just kept screaming pest control or go away

2. Tradition -- traa who? is what the average Japans citizin will ask when you ask about the traditional whale slaughter in Taiji. No one knows about it! its a 'tradition' basically carried on by 8 or so families.

3. Food -- Fact : the average Japanese person loves cetaceans! to see and not to eat. They prefer whale like minke. So what does the japanese government do? 'mislable' dolphin for whale meat.

How are the taiji cetaceans killed? Speared in the back, remove the spear and insert a rod to clog the bleeding, then stab again until death.

4. Southern ocean whaling is carried out by Japan but thankfully hasnt even met half its quota in 2 seasons! ( around 1000 whales a season is the quota roughly) Commerical whaling is illegal in most waters, however Japan has a hugggggggggggge food fetish for whale meat. SO how do they get whale meat if it isnt in Taiji? Simple, a lie. They call it research . The IWC states that because they are 'researching' the entire whale MUST be used therefore whale meat in the markets. They are illegally whaling, should also note that it takes up to 40 minuets for a whale to die !



Cetacean meat is the WORLDS most toxic meat. It contains 2000 ppm of mercury [the worlds most non-radioactive elemet]. It is recommeded the intake should only be 0.4 ppm of mercury. A large portion of the japanese public have mercury posioning, but havent been tested.

The Japanese government doesnt want to admit that there is clearly something wrong with their logic, and ignor the fact that they are slowly murdering their families [I actually wrote a very quick peice on this on tumblr ]Obliteration by Conservation, Legal homicide?

As for the videos? they are easy to find on youtube, but im connected with a few folks from Sea Shepherd who keep me updated on videos if i havent found them, current situations and then theres twitter where a few of the members update etc. Junior's video however I had to talk to the right people to get it LOL it should be on the net somewhere

The three dolphins with Junior in the video are unnamed to my knowledge as there are hundreds of cetaceans in warehouses worldwide awaiting for someone to put them in a bowl.

I think I covered your questions? LOL I honestly can get into so much detail and write a book on cetacean slaughter!

 

[IanRRobinson]

I believe that there is no such thing as a species that we are incapable of keeping, only those which we are unwilling to keep or have not yet learned properly accommodate.

Completely agree. The real constraints are willpower, knowledge, space and above all else MONEY.

 

[barisax235]

by supporting cetacean captivity you are only supporting the Taiji dolphin slaughter and abuse/neglect.

Japan slaughters the dolphins in Taiji for no 'real' reason now, its all about not giving up and letting their long term enemy Sea Shepherd win that part of the whaling war. The excuses Japan are using at this very time are the fallowing...

If supplying dolphins for the captive industry is not a priority for the dolphin drives, then how does visiting a facility with a captive cetaceans support the drive fisheries?

This same contradiction was also present in the film 'The Cove'. Mr. O'Barry based the entire film upon the premise that the drive fisheries are a direct result of the drive fisheries, yet when asked, he goes on to say:

"We asked the Taiji fishermen 'if we could subsidize this activity. In other words, if you leave the boats tied up at the dock, we'll pay you the same amount of money you would have made killing dolphins in Taiji.' They got back to us and said 'Its not about the money, its about Pest Control'. Pest control. In other words, they're being told by the government, that the dolphin are eating too much fish in the ocean."

This statement occupies thirty-two seconds of the entire documentary which is meant to "shine a light on a dark and deadly secret." I ask, how can the full story be heard, when the reason for the drive is only present for thirty-two seconds? For comparison, the argument that captivity drives the events (with which the fishermen do not agree) holds the first twenty minutes of the film.

I support facilities that house cetaceans in the proper manner (accredited facilities with expert staff) as I personally feel that there is significant value for having people come into contact with cetaceans in ways that they cannot in the wild and hopefully be encouraged to make a change in how they view oceanic environments.

 

[stacey101]

There are plenty of facilities that keep their animals very well stimulated. They have their ups and downs like all higher mammals do. To Say they're always happy or always sad is ridiculous.



Most wild animals travel further in the wild than they would in captivity, the reason for this is because they need to go where the food goes, in captivity they don't need to travel far to find food. It must be pointed out as well that sometimes a dolphin or whale will have to travel through vast, empty expanses of ocean which is much less stimulating than what they get in captivity. When they are in the mood, captive dolphins regularly breach and socialize with others. Usually with their own species, but some places do have mixed species exhibits, and some individuals enjoy interacting with their human visitors.



Cetaceans as a whole, have no one true pod structure. Most species are fairly fluid in their pod structures, both in captivity and in the wild. If a dolphin meets others that it gets along with it stays with them until it meets a new group. Orcas are slightly different with most having a more rigid structure based on a matriline, but the structures do change occasionally and they do associate with other groups from time to time. Captive animals most certainly do form family groups, some animals may leave and others may join, but this is all the same as what happens in the wild. Captive gene pools vary, with the bottlenose dolphins having the largest so far and orcas having the smallest, this isn't much of a problem, all they need is proper breeding management. When it comes down to hybrids, there actually aren't that many and it's not really all that unnatural as you can find hybrids in the wild as well.



Their dialects are not messed up, they are simply different from the original sources. As you get animals from different populations together they inevitably learn ways to communicate with each other, thus new dialects are created. The tanks have nothing to do with it.



Orcas in the wild do not live that much longer than captive whales actually. While there are some elderly animals in the wild, this in no way represents the species as a whole. On average females live about 40-60 years of age, males having even shorter life spans. While captive killer whales have in the past had very short lifespans, they're beginning to live longer. Most species lived shorter lives in captivity than in the wild and they began to live longer as we learned more about them. Orcas are no different. Dolphins meanwhile, already often live as long if not longer in captivity than they do in the wild in modern facilities. The age in which they get pregnant is unlikely to be different from wild whales.



The idea that the teeth of cetaceans are drilled into regularly is simply untrue. Also, most captive cetaceans outside of asia are not from taiji, or even recent captures. Outside of asia most captive cetaceans are either captive born or where captured elsewhere quite a while ago, no slaughter involved. Even a few Japanese facilities don't have too many animals that are recently captured from Taiji due to the increasing knowledge in how to care for them, most of Taiji's live captures go to mainland China. Taiji would still be killing dolphins and whales even if there where no wild captures anyway as capture is not their main goal. Their main goal is "pest control".



There probably are cetaceans which are not on record, but most are and most facilities are fairly transparent on that issue. Junior is a popular example, but a poor one. Firstly, he was up for sale, but that is not why he was kept in isolation. Junior did not do well with others and may have had a neurological issue, he had to be separated from other whales for that reason, and at that time the isolation pool for new arrivals was the only other place they could fit a killer whale.

Sorry for taking so long to reply Had work, assignment and more work.
I understand your point of view and that you wont fully understand because you are a pro-cap for cetaceans, and i respect that

Regarding my post on the vocalization and tank walls....I had more written and I must of deleted it by an accident. The tank walls had nothing to do with them understanding one another, but the fact it amplifies noise both from inside and outside the tank. Because cetaceans are sonic animals they rely on sound this is rather confusing and stressful ( especially with all the cheering crowds ) its much like the poles they use in Taiji to herd the dolphins to shore. As for the seperate un family related pods in each facility, orca dialect is the language that family has created for centuries and is how each family member understands one another much like english people understand english people or how a family uses slang or secret gestures only they understand. By placing these random orcas together, its like placing an english man in the same house as a korean man and asked to live together. It creates aggression and in the case of orcas sometimes death. Raking is done in the wild naturally, however in captivity it too is done but often in aggression which isnt normally the case in the wild.

Captive cetaceans are more complex then we are and by far more intelligent, yet a non-complex animal such as a bearded dragon gets more consideration then a cetacean. They get sand, branches to climb on, live food, a heat source, hiding places etc. Yet, the average cetacean...a ball? some one on one? Cetaceans cannot be given an ocean current, tide , the sound of the ocean (sensory deprivation) , live fish, plants, rocks, their real family etc.


Most of the taiji cetaceans who met the true standards are often shipped to places such as Mexico, Turkey, Egypt Dubai, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and many have gone to the 50 Japanese marine aquarium facilitie... And who else? why the US Navy! Early 2010 Seaworld
US premitted the import of one pilot whale who was wild caught. On top of all this breeding from the taiji cetaceans. The Taiji dolphin slaughter is connected to cetacean captivity and is a LARGE part as to the slaughter still occuring.

In fact, SeaWorld supports beluga whale hunts. Since 2005 SeaWorld has joined beluga whale hunters in harvesting threatened belugas to obtain their valuable genes to expand their breeding program.

( I know im new here, im not trying to stir things up its just a healthy debate )

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Here's my opinion. I'm not to sure about the whole we can keep any species thing. With futuristic technology maybe (that doesn't mean we should, though). I have to say that both Stacey101 and HyakkoShachi make some good points. I do think cetaceans can be stimulated in captivity and can be kept properly if the facility is good enough. I personally think that smaller and rarer cetaceans are ok to keep in captivity as they are in need of protection and are easier to mantain as they do not need as much food and space as larger ones (although they should have the largest amount of space possible) and may be easier to stimulate. Weither or not a cetacean is bored in captivity completely depends on personality. When at the Mystic Aquarium here in Connecticut, I saw two of the aquariums four (then three) Beluga Whales (the exhibit was quite large and they only display two at a time and they only have that many for breeding). One was very happy looking and interacting with me and other visitors (especially the smaller children) while the other was just lazily swimming around. One looked comfortable and the other didn't. I also think weither a cetacean should be in captivity or not depends on the species. As I said, smaller and rarer ones pass if they get certain standards while larger ones like Orcas and other whales would probably be better off in the wild. I do think some facilities do an ok job of keeping them, though (like Mystic).

P.S. I love the work of the Sea Shepards and completely agree with their cause (as I think all of us do) and feel good that someone with as much attention as them are fighting for the right causes.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Sorry for taking so long to reply Had work, assignment and more work.
I understand your point of view and that you wont fully understand because you are a pro-cap for cetaceans, and i respect that

Regarding my post on the vocalization and tank walls....I had more written and I must of deleted it by an accident. The tank walls had nothing to do with them understanding one another, but the fact it amplifies noise both from inside and outside the tank. Because cetaceans are sonic animals they rely on sound this is rather confusing and stressful ( especially with all the cheering crowds ) its much like the poles they use in Taiji to herd the dolphins to shore. As for the seperate un family related pods in each facility, orca dialect is the language that family has created for centuries and is how each family member understands one another much like english people understand english people or how a family uses slang or secret gestures only they understand. By placing these random orcas together, its like placing an english man in the same house as a korean man and asked to live together. It creates aggression and in the case of orcas sometimes death. Raking is done in the wild naturally, however in captivity it too is done but often in aggression which isnt normally the case in the wild.

Captive cetaceans are more complex then we are and by far more intelligent, yet a non-complex animal such as a bearded dragon gets more consideration then a cetacean. They get sand, branches to climb on, live food, a heat source, hiding places etc. Yet, the average cetacean...a ball? some one on one? Cetaceans cannot be given an ocean current, tide , the sound of the ocean (sensory deprivation) , live fish, plants, rocks, their real family etc.


Most of the taiji cetaceans who met the true standards are often shipped to places such as Mexico, Turkey, Egypt Dubai, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and many have gone to the 50 Japanese marine aquarium facilitie... And who else? why the US Navy! Early 2010 Seaworld
US premitted the import of one pilot whale who was wild caught. On top of all this breeding from the taiji cetaceans. The Taiji dolphin slaughter is connected to cetacean captivity and is a LARGE part as to the slaughter still occuring.

In fact, SeaWorld supports beluga whale hunts. Since 2005 SeaWorld has joined beluga whale hunters in harvesting threatened belugas to obtain their valuable genes to expand their breeding program.

( I know im new here, im not trying to stir things up its just a healthy debate )

1) As HyakkoShachi said, they natural change their family groups in the wild. If that's true then how can one language keep on for centuries?

2) I'm not too fond of SeaWorld. I didn't know SeaWorld had Belugas through Why are they harvesting them? Taking a couple from the wild to diversify the gene pool is ok in my book and essential to keep the captive specimens from inbreeding. It's the same story with every species in captivity.

3) Are any cetaceans on the AZA Species Survival Plan?

 

[stacey101]

1) As HyakkoShachi said, they natural change their family groups in the wild. If that's true then how can one language keep on for centuries?

2) I'm not too fond of SeaWorld. I didn't know SeaWorld had Belugas through Why are they harvesting them? Taking a couple from the wild to diversify the gene pool is ok in my book and essential to keep the captive specimens from inbreeding. It's the same story with every species in captivity.

3) Are any cetaceans on the AZA Species Survival Plan?

Well like humans, our language, accients and terms have changed too over centuries

They harvest the sperm from the males, kill them and bring back the 'goodies' to the lab to preserve them to expand the gene pool.

Thats a very good question, I have no idea I wish my CAZA course told me what was and what isnt.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Well like humans, our language, accients and terms have changed too over centuries

They harvest the sperm from the males, kill them and bring back the 'goodies' to the lab to preserve them to expand the gene pool.

Thats a very good question, I have no idea I wish my CAZA course told me what was and what isnt.

Well that's not very conservational. Why don't they just take the males back to the aquariums. Better then killing them if they're treated right and they could get more calves out of one live male than a small sperm sample. Mystic has two males and two female Belugas. Hopefully they'll get breeding results soon as they have been trying to do it naturally (the right way) for a while now. The new male arrived not to long ago so it might take some time. Unfortunetly for you, Mystic plans to soon receive dolphins as well. Since they're taking sperm from wild males I'm assuming AI works on cetaceans? I was not aware...

 

[stacey101]

Well that's not very conservational. Why don't they just take the males back to the aquariums. Better then killing them if they're treated right and they could get more calves out of one live male than a small sperm sample. Mystic has two males and two female Belugas. Hopefully they'll get breeding results soon as they have been trying to do it naturally (the right way) for a while now. The new male arrived not to long ago so it might take some time. Unfortunetly for you, Mystic plans to soon receive dolphins as well. Since they're taking sperm from wild males I'm assuming AI works on cetaceans? I was not aware...

Well, for conservation purposes release those harvested males back into the wild to create more belugas thus increasing the population

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Well, for conservation purposes release those harvested males back into the wild to create more belugas thus increasing the population

True and if AI does work on cetaceans then just collect the sperm and released the whales. Simple. I'll let you know if anything new happens breeding wise or new cetacean species wise at the Mystic Aquarium.