Oregon Zoo's Newborn Elephant

lensrainbow

lensrainbow

Member
Cutest elephant was just born and is playing with her mom in some wood chips. Contracts just surfaced which give ownership to a private company that does traveling shows in a month.

 
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I had to watch this twice, as the first time I thought I must have heard incorrectly, but no, I had not, this film states that the calf will be taken from its mother at thirty days old,to be supplied to a company that presents elephant shows, Words quite frankly fail me.
 
TARZAN said:
I had to watch this twice, as the first time I thought I must have heard incorrectly, but no, I had not, this film states that the calf will be taken from its mother at thirty days old,to be supplied to a company that presents elephant shows, Words quite frankly fail me.
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That is not what the film says. Ownership of the calf will go to Have Trunk Will Travel when the calf is 30 days old, which is a scandal and just terrible - but it does not mean the calf will be actaully taken away while that young. However, Have Trunk Will Travel could do that, and Oregon depends on their cooperation and well-meaning to avoid loosing the calf later once its weaned.
 
Yassa said:
That is not what the film says. Ownership of the calf will go to Have Trunk Will Travel when the calf is 30 days old, which is a scandal and just terrible - but it does not mean the calf will be actaully taken away while that young. However, Have Trunk Will Travel could do that, and Oregon depends on their cooperation and well-meaning to avoid loosing the calf later once its weaned.
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Right, so they will have ownership of the calf from thirty days old, but this does not mean it will be taken from its mother at that age, thanks for the clarification Yassa, in that case, I wonder at what age this calf will be taken from its mother, which it should not be taken at any age, as you have posted elsewhere, Oregon should purchase the breeding bull from Have Trunk Will Travel, so any calves will then be their property, however, as the zoo have entered into a legal contract with this company it may not be possible for this present calf to remain,unless, public pressure, hopefully, decides otherwise.
 
Why the outrage?
Nothing is for certain except legal ownership, and in zoos many animals are not legally owned by the zoo that is exhibiting them,
Also the article states the Zoo's current intent:
"The contract is valid. As per the agreement, official designation of ownership takes effect after the calf has lived 30 days. Once that happens, the Oregon Zoo will be in discussion with Have Trunk Will Travel regarding ownership, and it is the zoo's intent to retain Rose-Tu's calf."
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The contract was made 7 years ago. Much has probably changed at the zoo since then. Wait and see.
 
I hope it works out for the better. But the private company isn't a charity. And the statement that it is the zoo's intent to retain Rose-Tu's calf seems like PR. Ultimately the private company has 100% say and will need an incentive to not obtain the elephant, but I do believe public perception can have a strong influence. I'm a glass is half empty kind of guy though :(
 
From Oregon Zoo's Facebook

"A message from Oregon Zoo director Kim Smith:

Thank you all for your concern about Rose-Tu’s baby. We’re happy you came directly to the source for more information. I can assure you, there is no need for any petitions to keep Rose-Tu’s baby with her family. This has been the intent all along and our contract is representative of standard agreements within the zoo industry. While it may not be
widely understood by the public, many animals live out their lives in the care of people who are other than their legal owners. The Oregon Zoo has been home to other residents who were not initially owned by the zoo, most notably Packy.

The bottom line is that Rose-Tu’s daughter will live her life here at the Oregon Zoo with her family. There was never any question about that. We are committed to our elephant program and will continue to provide opportunities for elephants to breed and live in family groups here at the zoo."
 
That's great news. All this public attention hopefully at the very least solidified this plan and ensured the 4th and 6th offspring remain at the zoo also.
 
May be the title of this thread should be amended as the elephant isn't being sold to a circus?
It is my understanding that the offspring of dogs for example, are offered first to the Dog owner if they so choose and the rest retained by the owner of the bitch. Seams like standard practise in animal breeding to me.
 
As you said it was contractual. I don't know why you titled it 'sold.' The entire situation has been blown out of proportion by the media and the public. Which was the intent of the author whom surfaced the info which as said by the zoo was deemed redundant.
 
To say that HTWT never had any intent to assume control of the elephant at any point in its life is hard to say. After something like this blows up in the media, of course it is going to change their position and they are going to release statements putting them in the best light.

The Oregon Zoo does say this is common practice, which may be, yet they give an example of another zoo being the owner of an animal that is placed at their zoo, not a private company, let alone a private company that deals in the business of exploiting elephants.

I personally don't even like they are in a contract with a business that has a past of elephant abuse, and the entire business of an elephant show no matter how humane you try and make it should not be inline with the ethics of the zoo.

They said they are using HTWT's elephant to increase genetic diversity among their population which is important. But I wonder if they could have not found another male elephant somewhere else.

Another question is where does HTWT get their elephants from? Do they breed their own elephants? At some point they need to replenish their stock of traveling show elephants, so it seems reasonable to me that this clause in the contract gave them an avenue to do this if needed. Of course now, with all the public attention this very unlikely. So I do not think the story was for nothing.
 
The Houston zoo has a similar arrangement in place with HTWT's breeding female, Tess. She gave birth to a female calf, Tupelo in 2010. HTWT has yet to ask for Tess, Tupelo, or Tucker (Tess' seven year old calf bort at HTWT). The intention of HTWT is to further breeding programs, creating multi-generational herds. As Oregon has reiterated several times.
It is not hard to say that HTWT won't request the calf to be transferred to its facility. Portland has stated they are applying for ownership of the calf, more so to appease the public than to thwart off any advances by HTWT. As a member of the AZA, elephant TAG, SSP, and IEF HTWT will not behave in a manner other than professional.
 
lensrainbow said:
To say that HTWT never had any intent to assume control of the elephant at any point in its life is hard to say. After something like this blows up in the media, of course it is going to change their position and they are going to release statements putting them in the best light.

The Oregon Zoo does say this is common practice, which may be, yet they give an example of another zoo being the owner of an animal that is placed at their zoo, not a private company, let alone a private company that deals in the business of exploiting elephants.

I personally don't even like they are in a contract with a business that has a past of elephant abuse, and the entire business of an elephant show no matter how humane you try and make it should not be inline with the ethics of the zoo.

They said they are using HTWT's elephant to increase genetic diversity among their population which is important. But I wonder if they could have not found another male elephant somewhere else.

Another question is where does HTWT get their elephants from? Do they breed their own elephants? At some point they need to replenish their stock of traveling show elephants, so it seems reasonable to me that this clause in the contract gave them an avenue to do this if needed. Of course now, with all the public attention this very unlikely. So I do not think the story was for nothing.
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If this recently born elephant calf had joined Have Trunk Will Travel, at whatever age, I wonder if she would ever had the opportunity to breed and have calves of her own, or would she have been destined to be a performer only, I think it would be prudent for all concerned with the future well being of this elephant, or for that matter, any other elephant calves to be born at this zoo, to keep a watchful eye on this situation after the dust has settled, just to be on the safe side.
 
Thats good to hear.

From what I understand in 1993 HTWT purchased Tess from the Los Angeles Zoo. And The Houston Zoo purchased Tess from HTWT in 2008. It was in 2010 that Tess became pregnant and HTWT was not involved anymore. So HTWT does not legally own Tess like in the case of this newborn elephant at the oregon zoo. Is this correct?
 
Have any of you actually read the breeding loan agreement available on the seattle times website?
 
For some years now, it has become increasingly difficult to obtain young Asian elephants for zoos and circuses, resulting in the zoos establishing breeding facilities at their premises, and thus contributing to the conservation of this species, circuses that wish to continue showing elephants in America have also had to think of other ways of obtaining elephants so that the show can go on, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey have indeed established their own large elephant conservation centre for this purpose, where, young elephants are taken away from their mothers at a very young age to commence their training with bull hooks and other implements. Could it be that Have trunk Will Travel, instead of having to go to the great expense of establishing their own elephant conservation centre, like Barnum and Bailey,have entered into agreements with various zoological establishments with the main intention being to supply young elephants for their shows etc.?, and if nobody twigs on to this, all well and good. Here in the U.K. a zoological establishment with highly religious views was kicked out of B.I.A.Z.A. after being exposed for having dealings with a circus over an arrangement they had regarding tigers, which I think signifies public opinion in this day and age of using wild endangered animals for entertainment purposes, and no, I have not seen a copy of any contract any American zoo may have with Have Trunk Will Travel, in my opinion such a contact should not even exist between a bona fide zoological garden and a company that uses elephants in the entertainment industry purely to make a financial profit.
 
TARZAN said:
For some years now, it has become increasingly difficult to obtain young Asian elephants for zoos and circuses, resulting in the zoos establishing breeding facilities at their premises, and thus contributing to the conservation of this species, circuses that wish to continue showing elephants in America have also had to think of other ways of obtaining elephants so that the show can go on, Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey have indeed established their own large elephant conservation centre for this purpose, where, young elephants are taken away from their mothers at a very young age to commence their training with bull hooks and other implements. Could it be that Have trunk Will Travel, instead of having to go to the great expense of establishing their own elephant conservation centre, like Barnum and Bailey,have entered into agreements with various zoological establishments with the main intention being to supply young elephants for their shows etc.?, and if nobody twigs on to this, all well and good. Here in the U.K. a zoological establishment with highly religious views was kicked out of B.I.A.Z.A. after being exposed for having dealings with a circus over an arrangement they had regarding tigers, which I think signifies public opinion in this day and age of using wild endangered animals for entertainment purposes, and no, I have not seen a copy of any contract any American zoo may have with Have Trunk Will Travel, in my opinion such a contact should not even exist between a bona fide zoological garden and a company that uses elephants in the entertainment industry purely to make a financial profit.
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The Oregon zoo is talking with Have trunk will travel about turning over ownership of the calf. Deeming further discussion redundant. TO REITERATE... AGAIN.... the zoos contact with HTWT exists solely because Tusko is an under represented bull elephant in the SSP whom was a match for Rose Tu. the contact doesn't exist because the zoo agrees with every aspect of HTWT's management and philosophy. If they were concerned about maintaining their elephant herd than the sale of Tess and tucker to Houston would not be sensible, nor the breeding loan of Tusko, when they have two breeding females on site named Becky and Rosie. Rather accepting the inevitable demise of their stock HTWT is seeking to further other breeding programs. in fact I would not be surprised if Becky ended up in a AZA institution in the next several years. The situation doesn't need to be watched because there isn't a situation at all. You can't create a multigenerational matriarchal herd if you allow calves to be transferred. That defeats the purpose doesn't it?
 
loxodontaafrica said:
You can't create a multigenerational matriarchal herd if you allow calves to be transferred. That defeats the purpose doesn't it?
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Considering Portland, Oregon has been at the forefront of Asian Elephant breeding in the US, and have bred many calves over the last fifty or so years since 'Packy' was born, how come they have such a small number now rather than a thriving matriarchal herd?
 
Pertinax said:
Considering Portland, Oregon has been at the forefront of Asian Elephant breeding in the US, and have bred many calves over the last fifty or so years since 'Packy' was born, how come they have such a small number now rather than a thriving matriarchal herd?
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They stopped breeding for about 14 years.
 
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