I would do a mega jump for the Bristol Wildlife Conservation Park.
You and me both, unfortunately I seriously doubt that it will be that. I'm already sold on the fact that it probably won't happen.
Bristol Zoo (Closed) Bristol Zoo news 2012
- Thread starter Rupicola
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You and me both, unfortunately I seriously doubt that it will be that. I'm already sold on the fact that it probably won't happen.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
You and me both, unfortunately I seriously doubt that it will be that. I'm already sold on the fact that it probably won't happen.
I got criticised here a while back - by a poster whom I suspect was without much idea of the raw facts of life facing UK zoo funding - for suggesting that Bristol should just concentrate on opening Hollywood Towers with some relatively inexpensive exhibits - rather on the lines of Marwell 40 years back.
IMVHO they can put (unquestionably admirable) ideas like Bonobos, Sumatran orang-utans and manatees on hold until the finance is there - which would be more easily attained if the park was open and able to attract sponsorship.
But the whole basis of the proposed new park is their immersion exhibits, just placing the animals in paddocks would not be the same.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing the idea scaled down but I think Bristol want to either go the whole hog or not at all. There is nothing wrong with housing animals the Marwell way but Noah's Ark already do that, this has to be able to do it better to pull in the customers.
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I know this might be a touch radical but why doesn't Bristol sell the crowded city centre site to developers and use the funds to set up the park, albeit in a more general form?
They would be able to hold the 'charismatic megafauna' they lack, as well as an existing base to operate from and a seed stock to build on.
It's a sad day when a zoo has to turn visitors away because their car park is not big enough-I bet the disappointed people vote with their feet and the money goes to another, undeserving (IMO), local collection.
They would be able to hold the 'charismatic megafauna' they lack, as well as an existing base to operate from and a seed stock to build on.
It's a sad day when a zoo has to turn visitors away because their car park is not big enough-I bet the disappointed people vote with their feet and the money goes to another, undeserving (IMO), local collection.
I don't think this would be practical (besides the fact you'd be wrongly destroying one of the oldest zoos in the world):
1. I don't think they'd get that much money, in the big scheme of things for selling the site. Yes it's a "city centre site" but we're in the middle of a recession and prices are low. Additionally any new owners would have to spend a fortune to ready the site for development which would lower the price they'd be prepared to pay;
2. Whilst closed and before any new site opened (two years minimum I'd guess) the zoo would be making no money;
3. Also whilst closed they'd still have overheads wages to pay, at least to the administrative staff. With the other staff they'd have the option of paying them to do nothing for a couple of years or laying them off (triggering large redundancy costs).
If they're going to try to develop the Hollywood site I'd imagine the only practical option (which still might not be financially viable) would, as someone else has suggested, be to knock up something "cheap and cheerful" (I'm thinking Marwell/Amazona) to get the ball rolling and some money in. I don't think "cheap and cheerful" would be a problem given Noah's Ark is the major competition and they (Bristol) might do well with a combined discount entry ticket for the two sites.
Whenever I've been recently the place has been heaving, a bigger car park would be pointless as the place is already at (profitable) capacity.
Indeed - if this was done, the upshot would almost certainly be the loss of Bristol Zoo, with a new site never managing to materialise.
A couple more points to add to the arguments above.
It might not be easy to get planning permission for a development on this site.
There is plenty of free parking on the Downs about 150 metres from the zoo's entrance (but it doesn't get much publicity).
Incidentally, in a queue to leave them M5 at Cribbs Causeway last Sunday, I had an extended opportunity to study the entrance to the Hollywood Towers estate, which was mildly flooded (like many other areas of the west of England).
Alan
A pair of Alaotran Gentle Lemur have joined the collection, the male being from Durrell and the female from a collection in France
Zoo's Mr Grey 'in lemur love story' - Offbeat, Breaking News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk
Zoo's Mr Grey 'in lemur love story' - Offbeat, Breaking News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk
Gigit
Well-Known Member
An article about gorilla Salome's early life:
My, how you've grown: Zoo keeper and gorilla reunited 20 years after he reared him in his bedroom | Mail Online
My, how you've grown: Zoo keeper and gorilla reunited 20 years after he reared him in his bedroom | Mail Online
I remember Ron Smith at ZSL but would never have recognised him from these photos of him now! Interesting how the article describes him as being made 'redundant' at 60 from the Zoo- that was probably during the 1990 'bottleneck' era when a number of older staff were swept aside.
The article also says Salome went from London to Bristol 'two years later', whereas in fact she went to Chessington then and didn't arrive at Bristol till 1998, but accuracy is probably too complicated for the story.
And for the record Salome's mother 'Lomie' later became an excellent mother (at Howletts) after her first two infants, which were both born at ZSL where she had no companionship/support from other Gorillas whatsoever. She had good maternal instinct even with Salome, and struggled to look after her for about 3 weeks before it all broke down and she was removed to be handraised,- hardly surprising under the circumstances.
The article also says Salome went from London to Bristol 'two years later', whereas in fact she went to Chessington then and didn't arrive at Bristol till 1998, but accuracy is probably too complicated for the story.
And for the record Salome's mother 'Lomie' later became an excellent mother (at Howletts) after her first two infants, which were both born at ZSL where she had no companionship/support from other Gorillas whatsoever. She had good maternal instinct even with Salome, and struggled to look after her for about 3 weeks before it all broke down and she was removed to be handraised,- hardly surprising under the circumstances.
I would say its pretty much equal and depends on if they are, after the first year or so, then given a decent social upbringing with other Gorillas, so they know they are Gorillas not people. For a female this means they will later allow a male to approach them to mate, for a male, that he's interested in Gorillas, not more so in the keepers.
In 'Salome's case, she was(wisely) sent at about 18 months old to Jersey Zoo to join a small group of handraised babies there for companionship. Then she and the youngest male 'Kumba' returned later to London as a young pair so that she always had Gorilla companionship from after her first year.
For most, yes. Most of them beed easily, it`s just the question if they will raise their kids. I have never seen a scientific study on how many handraised female gorillas raise their own young, but I`d say eventually, most sucessed at doing so. They may need a few tries though, and they are more sucessful if they are integrated into a family group at an early age. If a female gorilla is integrated into a family group early somewhere between age 1 and 2, with other females as role models, I`d say her chance of sucessfully raising her own young is as good as a mother-raised one. Currently, most handraised gorillas are put back into a family group at age 3-4, and I think that is way too late. The problem at this age is that handaised gorillas are very self-confident without knowing gorilla etiquette, while an adult gorilla considers a 4 year old as old enough to behave themself and too old to be protected by motherly females. So the adult gorillas find their behavoir impertinent and respectless and will put the infant in his/her place. Which leads to terrified little gorillas that need a lot of time to come out of their shell and find their place in the group, so that it will take a LOT of time before leaning of childcare can even start.
The main problem with hand raising is NOT the handraising itself - the deciding point is when the young is put back in contact with adult gorillas. If that happens early (before the age of 3), the chances for both male and female infants to become totally normal gorillas are great. If it hapens later, the chances are still good, but it will be extremely stressful for the little one. If the young males (as currently done in Europe) go into a bachelor group after their time in the Stuttgart kindergarten without ever seeing an adult female gorilla during adolesence, their chances of breeding are very very poor, I`d say far under 50% (closer to zero...).
The main problem with hand raising is NOT the handraising itself - the deciding point is when the young is put back in contact with adult gorillas. If that happens early (before the age of 3), the chances for both male and female infants to become totally normal gorillas are great. If it hapens later, the chances are still good, but it will be extremely stressful for the little one. If the young males (as currently done in Europe) go into a bachelor group after their time in the Stuttgart kindergarten without ever seeing an adult female gorilla during adolesence, their chances of breeding are very very poor, I`d say far under 50% (closer to zero...).
I remember Ron Smith at ZSL but would never have recognised him from these photos of him now! Interesting how the article describes him as being made 'redundant' at 60 from the Zoo- that was probably during the 1990 'bottleneck' era when a number of older staff were swept aside.
The article also says Salome went from London to Bristol 'two years later', whereas in fact she went to Chessington then and didn't arrive at Bristol till 1998, but accuracy is probably too complicated for the story.
And for the record Salome's mother 'Lomie' later became an excellent mother (at Howletts) after her first two infants, which were both born at ZSL where she had no companionship/support from other Gorillas whatsoever. She had good maternal instinct even with Salome, and struggled to look after her for about 3 weeks before it all broke down and she was removed to be handraised,- hardly surprising under the circumstances.
Who was Salome's father?, did Lomi come to Regent's Park pregnant. I recall in 1976 there was an article in the national press that stated Guy had attacked Salome when an infant, I think he took the baby to the top of the climbing frame and threw her to the ground, I always thought at the time as a teenager that Guy was Salome's father, obviously, I now know that was not the case, an excellent article, by the way, about Salome being visited by her former keeper at Bristol.
As usual, agree with virtually all your comments.
I would rate the chances of H/R 'bachelor' males that have not had prior female contact, becoming successful breeders as around about 25%(or even less...?)Mother-raising ability doesn't seem overly connected with handraising. Females such as Salome and Zaire who both reared their firstborns without good group experience of other adults(though Salome would have seen Zaire) seem to indicate that. So did Romina at Bristol, a female who had a very poor background and is still not very well socialised within their group- yet reared her only baby perfectly. The female 'Mayani' at Dublin (who came direct from Stuttgart) is another example of a h/r good first time mother though in her case she did have the older female Lena's example to follow. There must be many others too.
I have never seen any figures to show the success rate of handraised females both in breeding and in mother-rearing, but like you I think it is pretty high. The exceptions- e.g. 'Asante' at Twycross, 'Digit' at St Martin La Plaine, are mostly the ones that endured extreme spoiling/extended human contact in their formative years. Even then the damage can sometimes be mitigated in later life- as with the female 'Sidonie' at Howletts who after many years of nothing, did finally breed and rear an offspring, though she was brought up like a human child, by an eccentric Frenchman.
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Salome's father was the Bristol male 'Samson' Her mother 'Lomie' was sent to Bristol for mating on two occassions after it became apparent that 'Guy' would never breed with her. Each time she went back to ZSL to have the baby. The first baby was Salome (owned by ZSL) the 2nd was 'Saul' (owned by Bristol.) He was handraised also, then sent down to Bristol and later to Singapore(where he died young)
I am 99.9% certain 'Guy' was never put with Lomie or her babies in the short time they were with her, so I think that story is inaccurate.
It may have been just a publicity story but it was definitely reported at the time, it was definitely 1976, the year the new Lion Terraces opened, I don't suppose we will never know now if it was true or not but I couldn't imagine London Zoo just making the story up just to get a bit of publicity for the zoo at the time.
This is something I have never heard before but you have me interested now.
It is the correct year for Salome's birth (born 16.7.76) but as I said above, she was only with her mother for about 21 days before they decided to handrear. I would have thought putting them with Guy was such a big risk they wouldn't have dared to try it, and if he threw the baby from a height he would more likely have killed her. Still, like you, I rather doubt they would have concocted such a story just for the Press.