Hunting ranches

There are many endangered species on hunting ranches, many of those species are rare in zoos, for example the last herd of European bison (Bison bonasus) in the united states is on a hunting ranch in nebraska called white elk ranch, other rarities they have include Alpine ibex, Siberian ibex, East caucasian tur, SIberian reindeer, Dalls sheep, Rocky mountain goat, Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, and Stones sheep. There is also this place called Iron Mountain Ranch in texas, i dont know if it is a hunting ranch but they have animals like Mishmi takin, Soemmerrings gazelle, Slender horned gazelle, Bharal, White lipped deer and Nilgiri tahr, like Thor I think hunting for food or sport is cruel brutal and barbaric, but what I am starting to think is what ever saves these astonishing and rare hoofstock species must be done, meaning hunting ranches and programs are acceptable if they keep the species alive and well. Does anybody else have on opinion this ?
 
I'd like to bring up three points here.

First, do any hunting ranches participate in reintroduction or restoration programs? I am a pious supporter of "Conservation happens in the wild". Any facility whose goal is to house and breed species for the sole purpose of having visitors kill them, is, in my opinion, failing to conserve the species.

Second, what type of conservation message do these places send? Think about the messages zoo exhibits send: They seek to depict the remarkable aspects of their species, then to convince the visitors to support conservation. How can hunting ranches send any sort of positive message? They are among the last places where some animals exist, due to, ironically, hunting. And nearly every animal on ranches will succumb to that fate. Is that how we want to preserve a species?

Third, I would like to bring up the health and genetics of these animals. How many hunting ranges seek to preserve subspecies or utilize studbooks? How many have an on-site veterinarian? In America, hunting ranches can be among the worst places for animals, worst than our dismal roadside zoos. In addition, hunting ranches utilize wildlife auctions, the embodiment of animal cruelty.

As you can imagine, I am also moralistically opposed to the idea of killing animals for-what? Thrill? Pride? Honor? It is selfish, insensitive, and speciesist. I hope that our world can work towards abolishing canned hunts and respecting all animals, not just our esteemed companions.

Best wishes, TV
 
Hunting for food or sport isn't cruel if its management of the species and done as actual hunting. I draw the line at canned hunts (be they physical IE a pen or chemical aka the animal is drugged which is done on unethical ranches that hunt a few "dangerous animals".

I personally spent 1500 dollars total on gear, licenses, tags, ammo, a new scope, a shooting tripod, new boots, not to even estimate the gas and food I purchased for hunting. All that money spent had Alabama state sales taxes collected out of it that went directly to state government which funded Game Wardens and deer management through State fish and game. And I spent it to take deer. I shot two does and an 8 point buck. My tag was for 3 bucks and a doe a day. So the state got their money out of me to say the least.

I will spend about half of that duck hunting this spring and fishing on Lake Guntersville this spring and summer. And all that money goes to the same place - Conservation.

TheVegan - You think all hunting is canned hunting? Its not. 70 years ago, Alabama's whitetail herd was wiped out and it was rebuilt from several subspecies. Subspecies differences will work themselves out. And when you get down to Extinct in the Wild, I think subspecies differences are way too trivial to worry about. Who cares if it a Cross River Scimitar Oryx or a Blue Moon Scimitar Oryx when you have a group so fragmented that they are going extinct? All you are doing is letting speciation act as a stumbling block against the limited population.
 
I'd like to bring up three points here.

First, do any hunting ranches participate in reintroduction or restoration programs? I am a pious supporter of "Conservation happens in the wild". Any facility whose goal is to house and breed species for the sole purpose of having visitors kill them, is, in my opinion, failing to conserve the species.

Weather any animals from game farms have been reintroduced or not I dont know, but having a large population living in as close to a wild situation as possible keeps diversity and keeps animals available for reintroduction if this is suitable. In many cases the habitat is the wild is the problem and there is no point releasing animals when their fate will be the same as the previous population.

How can hunting ranches send any sort of positive message? They are among the last places where some animals exist, due to, ironically, hunting.

The management of game farms is sustainable usage. Regulated hunting has never wiped out a species in the wild. What has caused the loss of populations is habitat loss and unregulated hunting, usually through local populations using methods such as snares and traps. The message of sustainable utilization and management of populations in the wild like on game farms would mean populations would not go extinct.

Third, I would like to bring up the health and genetics of these animals. How many hunting ranges seek to preserve subspecies or utilize studbooks? How many have an on-site veterinarian?

Since when do wild populations have on site vets. Populations living in large enclosure in natural type habitat live like in the wild. There are very few instances where a vet could assist, and allowing nature to take its course is usually the best for the population weeding out weaker animals which would not survive in the wild. In most situations an animals with something wrong with it will be shot, so it does not suffer.
 
There are some very interesting points on this thread. As one who grew up hunting (although I have not hunted big game in over ten years), I find the idea of canned hunting repulsive. Most hunters agree with the principle of "fair chase." The problem here is overpopulation of animals in zoos. As has been mentioned before, it is tough to place all of the "surplus" animals into suitable facilities as the AZA only has so many accredited facilities. This is where I think more large AZA-accredited safari parks are in order. I've never understood why there aren't more of these around. I'm sure it comes down to money but would it be possible with fundraisers? It seems to me that with animals like addax, Arabian, or scimitar-horned oryx different facilities could maintain bachelor or "bachelorette" herds for some of these surplus animals and people could still see them in a more natural state. To me the idea of any animal in a zoo ending up in a hunting preserve is very unpalatable.
 
First let me say I'm not a Hunter, and please read the whole post before you decide you hate me!! I have my own reasons for being a non-hunter, but I do not find Hunting to be primitive or immoral. Some might argue it all went downhill once H. Sapiens picked up the habit, but truth is we didn't follow roots and grubs out of Africa. I don't believe I can marvel at the deadly beauty of a Tiger or thrill at the sound of a Wolf and give them a pass for acting on need or instinct against a Hominid hunting out of choice. I just wish our Conservation ethic had kicked in 10,000 years ago.

I believe that Hunting (especially in developed countries) is critical to Conservation. Right up there with economic prosperity. The truth is every Country on Earth is just a severe economic crises away from a "Bushmeat Armageddon". Or for that matter, an unreasonable environmental regulation away from complete corruption of the entire ethos. I really worry about America's Bears 100 years from now, when our National Forests are disconnected Islands, Asia's Bears are Extinct, and the Conservation protections afforded by Hunting interests (in the form of monetary investment and Conservation infrastructure {State Game Depts}) might not be in place. I'm not worried if New Jersey hunters kill 10% of resident Black Bears or even if Wyoming uses hunting (as a measure of total mortality) to manage it's Brown Bears. Managed hunting will not contribute to the extinction of those populations.

I believe that as a group Hunters and Fishermen contribute far more financially to Conservation than do a like group of Animal Welfare enthusiasts. Hunting depends on sustainable populations of game animals and on protected habitat; which of course directly benefits non-game populations as well. After 75 years of advocating Conservation Science even pro-hunting groups largely supported the re-introduction of Wolves to the Rockies, albeit provided that they were managed as a sustainable game animal. Those that use the appeal of the Wolf as an individual creature and not as an ecologically significant population, or worse yet as a biological Trojan Horse to work against the economic interest of landowners really undermine the chances of a long-term viable population of those animals.

The situation is similar here in Alaska with the re-introduction of the Wood Bison. The Feds declined the State's petition to have the Bison released on the Yukon Charlie Preserve (where I imagine the Feds enforcement of the ESA would be beyond State input). Now the Bison will be released in an area of State and Native Landholdings with exemptions from the ESA that will allow for State control and preserve Native economic interest. Which is logical and appropriate if the goal of the ESA is to prevent Extinctions and the goal of the Animal Lover is a free roaming population of North America's largest mammal in it's Native Range.

I believe the three most effective private Conservation Organizations in the United States are (providing a pass to the National Wildlife Federation and the Wildlife Conservation Society) Ducks Unlimited, The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and The Nature Conservancy. The first two have Hunting as their reason of being and join the last in fighting sprawl. Many organizations raise individual donations on the individual appeal of a single animal, yet might be a little loathe at identifying the economic habits of their doners as being the primary current contributing cause of wildlife losses. Ban a Beaver trap, drive private trappers out of the activity, the State eventually employs trappers anyway, a environmentally active percentage of the Hominid population is lost to conservation interests, and the smugly satisfied voters buy one of the 250 new homes being built on a fallow (rewilded) farm with the added bennie of being "close to nature".

I don't hunt. The idea of a canned hunt disgusts me. Even the behind high fences/sure thing Texas Safari thing makes me grimace. But Hunting typically has been a reasonably sure thing, once you locate the animal. 10,000 Scimitar Horned Oryx, 20,000 Blackbuck, 30,000 Axis Deer living on protected, undeveloped land in sustainable, viable populations is proof positive for me. The animal welfare group that wielded the ESA (which remember has the goal of preventing Extinctions) against Texas Hunting Ranches offering Addax or Scmitar hunts (and I've thrilled at spotting both driving along the back roads west of San Antonio) outright stated that they were not interested in preserving any population subject to hunting. The group was content to have the animals exist tenuously as a Zoo Population (likely unviable) or in very small numbers in their Native Ranges (doomed). It is insanity. In my opinion.

Hunters appreciate wildlife differently than I do, and occasionally show an appaling ignorance about a species' natural history or lack of respect to what they are taking from the wild. However, who hasn't grimaced at a large group of Zoo Visitors wondering what kind of Deer are in that African Savannah Exhibit, or forbid asking an Education Volunteer how they train the Porcupines not to shoot their quills at the keepers and guests? Those visitors appreciate the wildlife they are enjoying differently that I do. But not less. The Zoo needs those visitors (learning something I hope)....and Conservation needs Hunters....and Landowners.
 
Me and the kid are going to visit tomorrow with the idea of Posting a review this week. Sealife in Seward and Wildlife Conservation Center in Portage later in the Spring, though I'll post some photos of all three soon. I love this site!!
 
I don't hunt. The idea of a canned hunt disgusts me. Even the behind high fences/sure thing Texas Safari thing makes me grimace. But Hunting typically has been a reasonably sure thing, once you locate the animal. 10,000 Scimitar Horned Oryx, 20,000 Blackbuck, 30,000 Axis Deer living on protected, undeveloped land in sustainable, viable populations is proof positive for me. The animal welfare group that wielded the ESA (which remember has the goal of preventing Extinctions) against Texas Hunting Ranches offering Addax or Scmitar hunts (and I've thrilled at spotting both driving along the back roads west of San Antonio) outright stated that they were not interested in preserving any population subject to hunting. The group was content to have the animals exist tenuously as a Zoo Population (likely unviable) or in very small numbers in their Native Ranges (doomed). It is insanity. In my opinion.

Do you mean that you have spotted these animals on the ranches themselves or that you have seen escapees around San Antonio? I thought I had read somewhere that Texas did have free-ranging populations of blackbuck, axis deer, fallow deer, sika deer, and nilgai, but had not heard anything about addax or scimitar-horned oryx.
 
All Scimitar and Addax I ever spotted were behind high fences. Free range Nilgai live in the brush country in the extreme southeast of the State. I never saw any Fallow Deer outside of high fences. I've spotted unfenced Axis Deer many times west of San Antonio. The only sure thing unfenced Sika I ever saw was near the headwaters of the Guadelupe River. I've seen numerous Blackbuck behind fences, but did once see a small group (including a beautiful, alert male) in a pasture outside Bracketville.

Within just a few hundred yards of spotting the Sika, I observed a jet black feral sow and for piglets cross the road. Only the third time I'd ever seen Feral Hogs from a roadway (in a State with a couple million running loose). Further west I've observed Mouflon on State Land and Aoudad behind low line fences. Once in Del Rio I was dispatched to a neighborhood to scare off an aggressive Wild Turkey. We got on scene and it was actually a free range Emu. I saw one other from Hwy 90 near Uvalde a year or so later. I've wondered, but have never had confirmed if the Emu was ever able to establish a feral, breeding population in Texas.

With Blackbuck, I believe what's considered free range is actually more often "low husbandry". Supplemental feeding alone. Be interesting to know how many Texas exotics live "feral", albeit being Texas behind fencing of some kind.
 
I've wondered, but have never had confirmed if the Emu was ever able to establish a feral, breeding population in Texas.

I think Emus would survive in the wild in Texas as they defend their young and eggs from predators. I have a friend who had a couple of released x-farmed emus settle on his farm. They raise a clutch of chicks each year in his crop. Not sure how many he has now, but they dont seem to leave his place. The nearest natural emu population is about 70km north of where he is.
 
I know Emu can take all 4 seasons without much shelter here in Alabama, so no doubt they could take the milder dryer climate of Texas.

To those who don't know Alabama its climate is unique to describe to outsiders its basically "hotter england" it still gets cold here but there basically 2 seasons and it is very wet year round.
 
You think hunting for food is cruel??? :confused:

Well here is the thing, If a human hunts for food it is stupid and barbaric and messes with wild populations, and hunting for sport messes with evolution, but being against animals hunting other animals is stupid, pathetic and just plain wrong because for example a cheetah needs to eat Thomsons gazelles or other hoofstock to survive as does a lion, a vegetarian diet could kill those animals, thats just my view, i hope that helps
 
Well here is the thing, If a human hunts for food it is stupid and barbaric and messes with wild populations, and hunting for sport messes with evolution, but being against animals hunting other animals is stupid, pathetic and just plain wrong because for example a cheetah needs to eat Thomsons gazelles or other hoofstock to survive as does a lion, a vegetarian diet could kill those animals, thats just my view, i hope that helps

Everything you said makes absolutely no sense. We are all less intelligent from having read the response. Hunting regulates and keeps wild populations if managed properly. And wild animal protein is healthier than captive raised animals. Modern Humans are just as evolved and derived hunters as a Lion or a Cheetah.
 
Well here is the thing, If a human hunts for food it is stupid and barbaric and messes with wild populations, and hunting for sport messes with evolution, but being against animals hunting other animals is stupid, pathetic and just plain wrong because for example a cheetah needs to eat Thomsons gazelles or other hoofstock to survive as does a lion, a vegetarian diet could kill those animals, thats just my view, i hope that helps

Agreed, my friend. Another point is that when humans hunt consumers, it reduces prey populations and thus, predator populations. tschandler, you can't argue that hunting does not alter the evolution of a species. Sport hunters don't aim for the sick or the weak, like predators do. You yourself have bragged about this. An example; due to poaching, more and more African Elephants being born never grow tusks.
 
Poaching isn't hunting. Statements like that are ignorant. And yes hunting has altered the evolution of species, us more than anything. Our large brains, binocular vision, omnivorous diet, bipedal stance, and thumbs all stem from evolutionary changes based on us hunting. If we were evolved to be strict vegetarians we would resemble Australopithecus Robustus or Gorilla.
 
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