Los Angeles Zoo & Botanical Gardens Sumatran rhino returning to LA Zoo

[rhinoman]

ok thank you david. Appreciate it.

 

[Pacarana]

I have just read through the thread and I don't know if I have an opinion on the Sumatran rhino in captivity. Could someone, that knows more about the controversial aspect of Sumatran Rhinos in captivity explain why the should or shouldn't be in captivity.

What are the biggest three issues Sumatran Rhinos have in captivity? Or is this more of a debate about where in captivity we should send them?

 

[DavidBrown]

I have just read through the thread and I don't know if I have an opinion on the Sumatran rhino in captivity. Could someone, that knows more about the controversial aspect of Sumatran Rhinos in captivity explain why the should or shouldn't be in captivity.

What are the biggest three issues Sumatran Rhinos have in captivity? Or is this more of a debate about where in captivity we should send them?

The main issue is that there was a very elaborate plan to start a captive breeding program in several major zoos 20+ years ago (Bronx, San Diego, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, Port Lympne) and it was almost a complete failure. A few rhinos were born from one female, Emi. One of them is now back in Sumatra and has fathered his first baby, a good thing, but given the expense (many millions of dollars) and physical cost (some rhinos died during the capture phase, almost none of them bred, and there is no sustained captive population) there was very little that came of the effort.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

The main issue is that there was a very elaborate plan to start a captive breeding program in several major zoos 20+ years ago (Bronx, San Diego, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, Port Lympne) and it was almost a complete failure. A few rhinos were born from one female, Emi. One of them is now back in Sumatra and has fathered his first baby, a good thing, but given the expense (many millions of dollars) and physical cost (some rhinos died during the capture phase, almost none of them bred, and there is no sustained captive population) there was very little that came of the effort.

I'm sorry David, but you've hugely exaggerated some aspects and ignored many of the details and accomplishments of the program.

Pacarana, if you would like to send me a pm with your questions I will gladly answer them! If you are seriously interested I have many original duplicates of documents from the program I could post you.

 

[DavidBrown]

I'm sorry David, but you've hugely exaggerated some aspects and ignored many of the details and accomplishments of the program.

Pacarana, if you would like to send me a pm with your questions I will gladly answer them! If you are seriously interested I have many original duplicates of documents from the program I could post you.

Instead of being rude Dicerorhinus, you could inform us about what you feel I'm exaggerating and ignoring. I don't mean to exaggerate or ignore, but what I posted is the general history of what happened - millions of dollars were spent to capture several Sumatran rhinos and establish a sustainable captive population in zoos outside of Sumatra and within Indonesia and it didn't work.

 

[john]

For what reason didn't work captive breeding program?

And what is the positive outcome of the breeding program? If any.

 

[jwer]

I'm with Dicerorhinus on this...

It's a long story and while it's setbacks and losses are numerous, so are it's accomplishments imo.

The short story is that when the program started, nothing was known about the husbandry of these animals at all. People thought they'd be the same as african rhino's and fed them hay to start out with. Animals died of starvation because they got the wrong diet. Animals went blind because they where kept in open enclosures, things like that.

We've come a long way in learning about their behaviour, their husbandry needs and their reproduction system among other things. Things we've might (probably) not have known without the breeding programme.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Instead of being rude Dicerorhinus, you could inform us about what you feel I'm exaggerating and ignoring. *I don't mean to exaggerate or ignore, but what I posted is the general history of what happened - millions of dollars were spent to capture several Sumatran rhinos and establish a sustainable captive population in zoos outside of Sumatra and within Indonesia and it didn't work.

Instead of posting exaggerated and ill-informed opinions David, I'm going to post a fact based synopsis of the program. I'm Sorry Pacarana, I'm using a phone on a train so it's going to be brief but my offer still stands if you have more questions. The SRT was a collaborative project established jointly between the aazpa, Indonesian and Malaysian government bodies to start a collaborative captive breeding program and protect the species in situ. The zoos and two purpose built breeding facilities in the species natural range were given initial priority (rhino were also sent to Thailand). Funding came from numerous sources and four US zoos (Cincinnati, NYB, SD and LA) who each agreed to contribute the same, the total of which was NOT "Many millions of dollars". The funding was NOT exclusively for the capture and relocation of animals but was also used for in situ conservation. Port Lympe in the UK operated independently of the SRT under francesco nardelli. David has*exaggerated capture mortality. Rhino were sourced from non-viable areas scheduled for clearance or were animals isolated from others as to have the smallest impact on the population. Unfortunately many of these animals were post-reproductive because disturbance and isolation had all but halted breeding. Unknown at the time Sumatran Rhino are induced ovulators and suffer irreversible damage if copulation doesn't occur. This was discovered due to the dedication of Dr Roth and her team and led to the first calves conceived in captivity. Unfortunately there were certainly avoidable losses and terrible bad luck (one animal was killed by a falling branch). There are still a few animals from the original program in captivity as well as their offspring and these animals have been bolstered by newly acquired animals so all is not lost.

No one would say the project was a resounding success but without it the species would be a lot closer to extinction.*Minah, a female calf conceived in the wild was born in 1987 in Malaysia, and after 5 miscarriages Emi produced 3 healthy calves in Cincinnati. Andalas, the fist calf born in the USA became a father in Sumatra last year. The program has provided gametes and tissue which are preserved should it ever be required. We now have a much better understanding of Sumatran Rhino physiology and behaviour something which little was known before the project.

I hope this helps Pacarana, and if you need more information or I have forgotten anything drop me a pm.

 

[DavidBrown]

Instead of posting exaggerated and ill-informed opinions David, I'm going to post a fact based synopsis of the program. I'm Sorry Pacarana, I'm using a phone on a train so it's going to be brief but my offer still stands if you have more questions. The SRT was a collaborative project established jointly between the aazpa, Indonesian and Malaysian government bodies to start a collaborative captive breeding program and protect the species in situ. The zoos and two purpose built breeding facilities in the species natural range were given initial priority (rhino were also sent to Thailand). Funding came from numerous sources and four US zoos (Cincinnati, NYB, SD and LA) who each agreed to contribute the same, the total of which was NOT "Many millions of dollars". The funding was NOT exclusively for the capture and relocation of animals but was also used for in situ conservation. Port Lympe in the UK operated independently of the SRT under francesco nardelli. David has*exaggerated capture mortality. Rhino were sourced from non-viable areas scheduled for clearance or were animals isolated from others as to have the smallest impact on the population. Unfortunately many of these animals were post-reproductive because disturbance and isolation had all but halted breeding. Unknown at the time Sumatran Rhino are induced ovulators and suffer irreversible damage if copulation doesn't occur. This was discovered due to the dedication of Dr Roth and her team and led to the first calves conceived in captivity. Unfortunately there were certainly avoidable losses and terrible bad luck (one animal was killed by a falling branch). There are still a few animals from the original program in captivity as well as their offspring and these animals have been bolstered by newly acquired animals so all is not lost.

No one would say the project was a resounding success but without it the species would be a lot closer to extinction.*Minah, a female calf conceived in the wild was born in 1987 in Malaysia, and after 5 miscarriages Emi produced 3 healthy calves in Cincinnati. Andalas, the fist calf born in the USA became a father in Sumatra last year. The program has provided gametes and tissue which are preserved should it ever be required. We now have a much better understanding of Sumatran Rhino physiology and behaviour something which little was known before the project.

I hope this helps Pacarana, and if you need more information or I have forgotten anything drop me a pm.

I appreciate the details you have provided, but I don't see that what I posted is "ill-informed opinion" or substantially different from what you posted Dicerorhinus. The objective of establishing a sustained captive population of Sumatran rhinos outside of Indonesia did not work and it DID cost millions of dollars and there were rhinos killed in the capture phase of the project. How is any of that unfactual or exaggerated?

I was supportive of the Sumatran rhino project when it started. I wish that it had worked. I'm glad that important knowledge was derived from the project. Andalas having a baby in the semi-wild is good news, but after 20 years of intense effort the lack of a sustainable captive population or foreseeable existence of one is rather dispiriting.

The latest census news on the Sumatran rhino sadly looks very bleak: Sumatran rhino population plunges, down to 100 animals

I am a determined optimist about our ability to save at least some wildlife populations and their habitats for the 21st century and beyond, but the downward trend of this species and apparent inability to either protect it in the wild or sustain it in captivity eludes even my optimism. California condors and black-footed ferrets came back from worse, so maybe the game isn't over yet. I hope that it isn't.

 

[Pacarana]

@Dicerorhinus - Thank you for all the information so far! Your PM box is full so I'll post it right here. I don't think this is going off topic either, it would be very useful information. If anyone else has useful information, please chime in.


Thank you for all the information you have given me so far. It has been very helpful and I think I know what path I'm taking. You see I have just recently been assigned a research paper on something that I know nothing about. It had to be environmental and it had to be something that will make news headlines in the next couple of months. I picked the Sumatran Rhinoceros because I don't really know too much about them, I didn't even though there was so much controversy behind them in captivity.

I've decided to write the paper on the pros of Sumatran Rhinos in captivity. I'm a strong believer in captive breeding animals, I almost have to be with my herpetological back round. I feel the only way to bring Lygodactylus williamsi to sufficient numbers is to breed them in captivity. Logically I know they will go extinct in the wild and I fear this will also happen to my new favorite animal, the Sumatran Rhino.

So far I want to address just three points that explain why I think Sumatran Rhinos should continue to be kept and bred in captivity. First of, what are your opinions about zoos and reserves/research facilities breeding them in captivity. Good or Bad? Be as truthful as you can. I'm trying to find a wide range of outlooks on the situation so I can still be optimistic at the end.

So far I want to explain that since WWF estimated only 100 Sumatran Rhinos to be left in the wild, captive breeding could be the only chance this species has for survival! Now I did read somewhere that the indian rhino was down to 35 animals in the wild and they bounced back through in-situ protection. Only did captive bred animals join them later on, once there numbers were larger. Is there any chance you can support this? I also did read that Malaysia is working with Indonesia for the first time with the Sumatran Rhino. Maybe in-situ protection might be the most plausible way?

The next topic I want to address is that they can be bred in captivity. Some animals will never breed in captivity ( of course I can use this to the extent I want to because I only have a couple examples of herps needing specific rain or pressure seasons.) From what I have gathered, there have been way too many still-born births. Yet, you have to learn somehow. I don't know how many baby Williamsi geckos were lost in 2009! I found that the use of Progesterone stimulates the females so that they are ready to breed. Do you know if a female has miscarriage while no Progesterone? I also read into that humidity might have something to do with it?

So far these are the only two points I'm working on now. I haven't bothered with the third yet. So far this seems to be a very complex and confusing animal, but I think I can take on the responsibility of supporting it! I'm extremely interested in the animal now, and I'm actually looking into large mammal husbandry.

Sorry for the very long PM. I guess I got a little excited while I was writing it. You mentioned you could send me an original PDF of the failed program. I would very much like that. It would probably give me another idea for my last topic. Do you know of any sites that would be good to look at for the controversial side of keeping the species?

Not sure if I have already said this: Do you think they should be kept in captivity? If so, how? I'm starting to think it would be smart to keep them at Way Kambas or BORA.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Dicerorhinus]

David, it's late here but I'll quickly tackle your posts.

millions of dollars were spent to capture several Sumatran rhinos and establish a sustainable captive population in zoos outside of Sumatra and within Indonesia

40 rhino were captured, more than several I think you'll agree. The goal was to establish a globally managed captive population shared between the USA, Indonesia MALAYSIA AND THAILAND and protect animals at selected in situ locations. The money was used NOT JUST to capture and relocate animals but also to establish RPU's.

and it didn't work

This is hyperbole. The goals were more extensive than establishing a breeding program. The captive breeding project wasn't a resounding success, but there are still animals in captivity and as of last year they're still breeding.

There was very little that came of the effort

This is utter rubbish. As previously mentioned the dedication of the people who worked on this project is the reason these animals aren't lost already. Dr Foose and Dr Van Strien (who are sadly no longer with us) worked tirelessly to secure as much protection for these animals as they could. The RPU program has saved countless animals. Dr Roth research that lead to the discovery that like rabbits and cats Sumatran Rhinos are Induced ovulators and not to mention the volumes of data collected on behaviour, physiology and husbandry.

The objective of establishing a sustained captive population of Sumatran rhinos outside of Indonesia did not work

As previously stated this one one of several objectives which are ongoing..

it DID cost millions of dollars and there were rhinos killed in the capture phase of the project

You said "many millions of dollars" previously which was an outright exaggeration, again this funding was channelled into several projects. David, two rhinos died due to trauma sustained during capture (a female on Sumatra and a Male in Sabah) they weren't "killed" and it wasn't "some" which implies a higher proportion of the animals captured. Again these animals were all "doomed" as they were either in isolated forest fragments or in forrest which had been scheduled for clearing relocating the animals would have carried the same risks when trapping. I'm sorry but I think your posts were ill-informed and far from objective but that's just my opinion.

Pacarana, I'll clear out my inbox tomorrow but if you prefer I can address your questions in the public forum.

edit: this may sound a little harsh in places, not really intended to be that way, I'm just clearing up some inaccuracies and ensure the relentless dedication of the people involved isn't dismissed

 

[DavidBrown]

This is hyperbole. The goals were more extensive than establishing a breeding program. The captive breeding project wasn't a resounding success, but there are still animals in captivity and as of last year they're still breeding.

This is utter rubbish. As previously mentioned the dedication of the people who worked on this project is the reason these animals aren't lost already. Dr Foose and Dr Van Strien (who are sadly no longer with us) worked tirelessly to secure as much protection for these animals as they could. The RPU program has saved countless animals. Dr Roth research that lead to the discovery that like rabbits and cats Sumatran Rhinos are Induced ovulators and not to mention the volumes of data collected on behaviour, physiology and husbandry.

Verifiably, the major goal of the project that Pacarana asked about, to establish an ex-situ "security population" has failed - after 20 years of continuous effort. I do not mean at all to diminish the hard work of the people involved in the project or the data was that gathered as you are suggesting.

I'm not sure what we're really arguing about at this point. Nothing that you have said has really refuted my basic points.

 

[gerenuk]

I really don't see how it would be possible to establish a self-sustaining population within 20 years for a species that has a nearly 16 month long gestation.

 

[DavidBrown]

I really don't see how it would be possible to establish a self-sustaining population within 20 years for a species that has a nearly 16 month long gestation.

From the latest population numbers it looks like the wild population isn't self-sustaining at this point if their numbers really have plummeted in half from what was thought (from 200ish to 100ish).

The fundamentals needed to create a sustainable captive population (regular reproduction of unrelated individuals) haven't happened so any hopes of establishing a viable captive population seem distant at this point - unless maybe they can use the knowledge they've gained to bring in most of the wild population and try a last gambit to try again with the captive program. Given the failure of the first attempt I wonder if the wildlife authorities would contemplate such a thing?

 

[gerenuk]

From the latest population numbers it looks like the wild population isn't self-sustaining at this point if their numbers really have plummeted in half from what was thought (from 200ish to 100ish).

The fundamentals needed to create a sustainable captive population (regular reproduction of unrelated individuals) haven't happened so any hopes of establishing a viable captive population seem distant at this point - unless maybe they can use the knowledge they've gained to bring in most of the wild population and try a last gambit to try again with the captive program. Given the failure of the first attempt I wonder if the wildlife authorities would contemplate such a thing?

David, census numbers alone are not enough evidence to support whether the wild Sumatran rhino population is self-sustaining or not. I don't have the evidence, nor have I read the recent study regarding the rhinos' numbers, but I suspect their numbers have a lot more to do with harvesting than reproduction. Also your definition of a sustainable captive population is not accurate - even regular reproduction of unrelated individuals is not enough to support nor is it even possible to a sustain a captive population.

In addition, I also don't understand why you quoted my statement and didn't even address it.

 

[DavidBrown]

David, census numbers alone are not enough evidence to support whether the wild Sumatran rhino population is self-sustaining or not. I don't have the evidence, nor have I read the recent study regarding the rhinos' numbers, but I suspect their numbers have a lot more to do with harvesting than reproduction. Also your definition of a sustainable captive population is not accurate - even regular reproduction of unrelated individuals is not enough to support nor is it even possible to a sustain a captive population.

In addition, I also don't understand why you quoted my statement and didn't even address it.

gerenuk, you questioned whether 20 years is enough to build a self-sustaining population of rhinos. I was commenting that in order to have the fundamentals of a self-sustaining captive population you need a lot of individuals that are not related in order to avoid inbreeding and to build up demographically sustainable numbers - presumably this was the goal of the Sumatran rhino program when it was started. My point was that the breeding that has resulted is all within one lineage so that is a long ways away from what is needed for a viable population of captive rhinos.

My point with the wild rhinos is that their numbers seem to be plummeting at a rate that is far above what they can reproductively sustain (be it due to hunting, habitat destruction and fragmentation so they can't find each other, etc.)

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Gerenuk, you're absolutely correct.

I was commenting that in order to have the fundamentals of a self-sustaining captive population you need a lot of individuals that are not related in order to avoid inbreeding and to build up demographically sustainable numbers

Come on David, this isn't true look at the Arabian Oryx and Takin sub-species in the west. Sometimes you have to work with what you have. Three other extant rhino species have experienced greater bottlenecks than the Sumatran Rhino.

My point was that the breeding that has resulted is all within one lineage so that is a long ways away from what is needed for a viable population of captive rhinos.

This is a true to a degree but there are reasons for this which you apparently arn't aware of which prevented most of the more viable animals from going to the facilities with the greatest expertise. The circumstances surrounding many of the losses were devastating.

My point with the wild rhinos is that their numbers seem to be plummeting at a rate that is far above what they can reproductively sustain (be it due to hunting, habitat destruction and fragmentation so they can't find each other, etc.)

Has it occurred to you that the population was previously vastly over-estimated and with more accurate census techniques the population has been revised down accordingly?

 

[DavidBrown]

Gerenuk, you're absolutely correct.

Come on David, this isn't true look at the Arabian Oryx and Takin sub-species in the west. Sometimes you have to work with what you have. Three other extant rhino species have experienced greater bottlenecks than the Sumatran Rhino.

Has it occurred to you that the population was previously vastly over-estimated and with more accurate census techniques the population has been revised down accordingly?

How any cynical idiot can dismiss the advances in our understanding of Sumatran Rhino reproductive physiology, behaviour and husbandry and consequently the successes of the program in the face of all of the political difficlutlies as "failure" is insulting to the people who have invested their lives in trying to save the species.

The Arabian oryx and takin analogies aren't relevant as those species breed well in captivity. The best analogy here is probably the northern white rhino which is now functionally extinct and had a long downward trajectory despite heroic acts to stop it.

Our understanding of Sumatran Rhino reproductive physiology, behavior and husbandry likely have improved, but it really doesn't matter if the ACTUAL RHINOS AREN'T BREEDING, which they don't seem to be at a relevant scale to build a captive population. The people who have invested their lives to save the species are to be commended. Hopefully they can figure out a way to keep the species going.

Again, you haven't actually refuted any of my basic points and now you are name- calling.

 

[gerenuk]

David, fundamentals or not, captive breeding programs are having to deal with reality. The majority of captive breeding programs are not sustainable for the long-term future; they do not meet what you consider are the fundamentals for captive breeding. But would you really be willing to say they are all failures? Its time to be adaptive with captive breeding, otherwise a lot will be lost to the cause of being fundamental.

Sumatran rhinos do seem to breed well in captivity, the species just hasn't been given much opportunities to do so. Bringing these rhinos into captivity did require a most unfortunate and big learning curve. And Dicerorhinus has already laid out many of the details of the challenges the population has faced - there is no need for me to repeat them. Northern white rhinos may be a good captive analogy (though the challenges they faced aren't exactly the same), however we can still source Sumatran rhinos from the wild - NWR's can't. Inbreeding will be a problem, but its a problem that has been managed in most captive species. There are very few captive programs that do not have rampant inbreeding.

So yes, Sumatran rhinos have had limited success and only in the last 10 years. But its not over, unlike what you seem to be suggesting. I understand what the limitations and realities are for captive breeding - you just don't seem to want to accept it yet.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

David,
Those analogies are relevant in the context of the points you were making. The NWR is lost because the Sudanese government declined assistance. There was no long decline they were poached out in a matter of months as the region fell apart.

As Gerenuk tried unsuccessfully to point out to you I don't think you understand how long this project could take to establish the species in captivity. Rhinos ARE BREEDING and can be bred at a frequency which would promote population growth (Emi and Ipuh had 3 calves and 5 confirmed unsuccessful pregnancies). The biggest hurdle going forward is forming a nucleus breeding group because a good proportion of the animals left are either geriatric or were obtained after suffering trauma which makes copulation difficult. If viable animals can't be recruited then the program could fail, which would be a tragedy considering everything else is in place. It's been a a little over a decade since the first successful captive birth there are still animals to work with and was a birth last year. It's not over and to write the whole thing off at this stage as a failure is insulting to the people involved.

Now David I wasn't "calling you names" I was pointing out that from my experience the critics of the program are cynical individuals who are totally ignorant of or refuse to acknowledge the steep learning curve with regards to the husbandry of the species, the condition of the animals the program started with and the conditions the animals were in kept at some facilities.