I could see sun bears on the Mappins. Would fit in with the Asian theme. Perhaps even some further S.E. Asian wildlife like deer? and primates (orangs, langurs)??
ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2013
- Thread starter Newzooboy
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I could see sun bears on the Mappins. Would fit in with the Asian theme. Perhaps even some further S.E. Asian wildlife like deer? and primates (orangs, langurs)??
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is any chance of babirusas being made available to any new collections with the population in the state its in....in fact within a few years I think there will be only two UK collections left with this species, and they are about two thirds of the pairs/groups in Europe that are still breeding.
My own feeling is that should he fail to breed (in which case we will be saying' what did they expect'?) that they should now cease switching males- just keep him on as the females obviously like him and he's a great display. Simply send Mjuku and Effie by turn 'down the road' to Chessington to get mated by their breeding male 'Damisi.' They could have their babies back in the London group- if Kumbuka isn't interested in them he won't be interested in attacking their offspring either. It would put them back rather into the 1970's 'breeding loan' era but its the most time- saving and easiest option IMO.
So is the trigger for males killing offspring not sired by them to do with that male having interest in mating with the females, rather than a convincing window of time for the pregnant female to be in the company of the (non-sire) male before giving birth?
As for Vicunas, its nice they're bringing them back and all, but won't the public just think there's more llamas? Darwin's rheas would have been great, but then the public would just think there's more emus. Kind of like the wildness of that enclosure, which might not stay that way with the addition of hoofstock.
Does anyone know if there's still the one rockhopper penguin?
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IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
There's a slight hint of despair here. If ZSL, which is supposed to run its zoos as an educational resource, can't impress upon the public that animals other than "charismatic megafauna" are special too, then I would humbly submit that it is failing in its remit.
I would concur that bringing in Darwin's rhea as opposed to the more common rhea species would actually underline ZSL's first and foremost role in conservation education and presenting this species to London's zoo audiences. Nothing wrong with that is there?
The problem with the Mappin Terraces(IMO) is that visually you can't get near to most of its area, due to the upper levels all being closed off, as it is in a dangerous state of repair.
So you can only view the 'vista' from the Terrace area near the restaurant. I believe many animal displays here wouldn't work for that reason- the current Australia theme does take into account that problem and is rather a 'foreground' display as a result.
I believe its some of both. A normal male knows if he's been through the process of dominating and mating a female and she then becomes 'his'- they then become settled as partners and there's no strife when the baby is born. If a (normal, mating) male and a female have only been together a relatively short time and without any mating, when a baby is born, that's likely to generate hostile interest/excitement in the new arrival- as it did with Kesho/Mjuku/Tiny. Kesho was perfectly normal- just infertile because of his Klnefelter's
But if Kumbuka did turn out not to be interested in the females, or in mating them, he's less likely to relate to them in other ways too. Its a whole different situation.
Even silverbacks who are not sexually interested in their females can be rather posessive and aggressive - I probably wouldn`t risk it. The mechanism of infanticid and what actually triggers it are not well-known - problem is you just can`t ask the silverback what is bothering him and due to the terrible consequences, it`s usually just avoided and not experimented with.
I am believing that it`s not really the "handraising" itself that renders male gorillas infertile, but what experiences the handraised males make between the age of 4 and puberty - if they get to live with (adult or at least teenage) female gorillas, they can learn what their "sexual target" is and what it looks and smells like. Mother-raised gorillas already know that, so it doesn`t matter if a mother-raised gorilla goes into an all-male group at age 4 or 5.
With that in mind, it`s not surprising that Bokito turned out to be a good breeding male - he is very humanized (I guess he wouldn`t mind having a female human in his harem), but he was integrated into the "retirement group" of gorillas in Berlin Zoo consisting of serveral adult females and a silverback at age 3 or 4 and lived with them for years before he went to Rotterdam.
Now that the Stuttgart gorillas have all moved into their new house, the nursery group will have visual contact with the family and maybe (hopefully!!) even direct contact with the females and infants, that may improve the breeding outlook of the males raised there in the future. Sadly that comes much too late for Kumbuka (he really is stunning!!).
I am believing that it`s not really the "handraising" itself that renders male gorillas infertile, but what experiences the handraised males make between the age of 4 and puberty - if they get to live with (adult or at least teenage) female gorillas, they can learn what their "sexual target" is and what it looks and smells like. Mother-raised gorillas already know that, so it doesn`t matter if a mother-raised gorilla goes into an all-male group at age 4 or 5.
With that in mind, it`s not surprising that Bokito turned out to be a good breeding male - he is very humanized (I guess he wouldn`t mind having a female human in his harem), but he was integrated into the "retirement group" of gorillas in Berlin Zoo consisting of serveral adult females and a silverback at age 3 or 4 and lived with them for years before he went to Rotterdam.
Now that the Stuttgart gorillas have all moved into their new house, the nursery group will have visual contact with the family and maybe (hopefully!!) even direct contact with the females and infants, that may improve the breeding outlook of the males raised there in the future. Sadly that comes much too late for Kumbuka (he really is stunning!!).
I'd have to agree that some males are like that, but some are also very gentle and 'soft'- I think Bongo/Bobby at ZSL was an example of that type- the females pushed him around rather and I can't see him ever trying to attack a strange infant- if that case had ever arisen. I think the females would have just shoved him away! However, after the debacle at ZSL with Kesho & the unrelated baby 'Tiny', I imagine London will never risk that sort of thing again. So..... what's the option? (if Kumbuka proves a failure that is
)Regarding early backgrounds-I agree the outcome depends largely on how they spend their formative years. Rather like 'Bokito' the Lisbon male 'Nasibu' (the only living grandchild of Bristol's female 'Delilah', now at Belfast) was another handraised male who was fortunate enough to go to a small mixed-sex group(Kolmarden) after handrearing- where there was a silverback and both an older and a same-aged female for him to interact with and learn from. He has since bred at Lisbon (and possibly while at Kolmarden too?) but had he spent those interim years growing up in a bachelor group, things might have been very different.
Hopefully the new arrangements with the Stuttgart Gorillas willl mean that badly- humanised males will in future, become a thing of the past.
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Some observations from today's visit:
Zaire was in the far corner of the outside gorilla enclosure. Kumbuka and the other two females seemed to be sticking together, he would run around occasionally and the viewing areas were packed. Already they seem to be a more active and interesting display group.
There has been quite a bit of movement with the primates - spider monkeys in the old colobus, lately diana monkey enclosure. Diana monkeys in the old gibbon enclosure and gibbons in the old spider monkey enclosure on the lion terraces where they make a much more engaging display.
The tiger enclosure is looking better in terms of foliage, there are some patchy areas but other parts with very nice long grasses. The tapir enclosure is looking good with the pool full but I think they should close the inside of the Casson to visitors. It feels even more grim and desolate than ever before.
In the Clore there have been a couple of changes which I don't think have been reported. Sloth in one of the side enclosures rather than out in the main hall and at the bottom level where there is a viewing window from the nocturnal section an area has been fenced off and houses armadillo - one of which was very active when I stopped by. No signage though. Chinchilla in the old armadillo enclosure.
Most excitingly the okapi calf is on show. I couldn't get a decent picture but it was great to see. The last calf was off show for much longer unless I'm mistaken.
I guess as a precaution and to give them peace, the zebras are using a section of the giraffe house as indoor quarters.
Here is a vicuna photo taken through a gap in the fence
Zaire was in the far corner of the outside gorilla enclosure. Kumbuka and the other two females seemed to be sticking together, he would run around occasionally and the viewing areas were packed. Already they seem to be a more active and interesting display group.
There has been quite a bit of movement with the primates - spider monkeys in the old colobus, lately diana monkey enclosure. Diana monkeys in the old gibbon enclosure and gibbons in the old spider monkey enclosure on the lion terraces where they make a much more engaging display.
The tiger enclosure is looking better in terms of foliage, there are some patchy areas but other parts with very nice long grasses. The tapir enclosure is looking good with the pool full but I think they should close the inside of the Casson to visitors. It feels even more grim and desolate than ever before.
In the Clore there have been a couple of changes which I don't think have been reported. Sloth in one of the side enclosures rather than out in the main hall and at the bottom level where there is a viewing window from the nocturnal section an area has been fenced off and houses armadillo - one of which was very active when I stopped by. No signage though. Chinchilla in the old armadillo enclosure.
Most excitingly the okapi calf is on show. I couldn't get a decent picture but it was great to see. The last calf was off show for much longer unless I'm mistaken.
I guess as a precaution and to give them peace, the zebras are using a section of the giraffe house as indoor quarters.
Here is a vicuna photo taken through a gap in the fence
I know it is a long shot AND requires good finance ..., but I would sincerely question the rationale of letting the Mappins stay in disrepair.
To me, it is a condescending excuse not to do what needs to be done: demolish and renovate (even if that means having to redo parts of the understorey Aquarium too. When London decided not to have build the proposed ZSL Aquarium in Docklands, this should have become a priority. Now, it is a non-area, a waste of space with a few non descript animals stuck at the front .. just so seemingly some animal is ranging over the territory and not have zoo visitors looking at an empty exhibit.
As it stands; It has not been working - the only SURE black spot in London Zoo - and it still looks empty at the best of times. Imagine what could be done with this area and make it be involved with the other parts of the zoo and most particularly the nearby Reptile House, Aquarium, the Giant Tortoises and the Komodo Dragons. A piece of Islands in Danger or something ... and what I suggested previously.
I know it requires cash ..., but ZSL / London has some good benefactors (and I do not mean City Council or Westminster which are next to *** useless and if it where them 20 odd years ago we would no longer have a Metropolitan Zoo inside London).
Still enough to make them the second-most-common UK zoo bear species though!
Now Jersey are (temporarily it seems) without, that's joint second with Sun Bears, but even so...
N
You are of course statistically correct, but i would class any species held at 3 or 4 collections only as a rarity and sadly all bear species fall into this category ( even brown bear at 6 when 3 holders are in Scotland & another is Dartmoor!), i would welcome ANY bear species at London, but would suggest spectacled may be a good choice given sun bear are at Colchester and no spectacled can be seen within 200 miles
Collectionwise, I would strongly favour sun bears! ZSL does not have a great theming around S.American mammals. I do think Whipsnade might be more suited to house spectacleds.
Sorry , how many south american mammals do Whipsnade have ? Neither are particularly strong in that area! As i said, one of London's biggest rivals have sun bear already, so they wouldn't have the same wow factor!
That was more or less my point - rarity in UK zoos is not really an issue with species choice when we're talking bears as even the most common is still definitely on the rare side!
Part of the reason for this is that so few UK zoos have multiple bear species (Whipsnade Sloth/Brown, Belfast Sun/Spec, Edinburgh Sun/GP is all there are) - something that is far from unusual elsewhere.
Spot on and when 2 of the 3 are Edinburgh & Belfast, it's a sad situation for most living in England!That was more or less my point - rarity in UK zoos is not really an issue with species choice when we're talking bears as even the most common is still definitely on the rare side!
Part of the reason for this is that so few UK zoos have multiple bear species (Whipsnade Sloth/Brown, Belfast Sun/Spec, Edinburgh Sun/GP is all there are) - something that is far from unusual elsewhere.
ZSL London simply lacks the size/space to provide for a cohesive complete S.American zone. Yes, they have spider monkeys, yes they have squirrels, yes they have anteaters and some macaws ... but right in there there is no space for spectacled bears. I would rather prefer them to make it into a complete S.American experience then .. if and when to hold spectacleds. That is simply not the case.
TMM, it would be far more realistic to try and do that sort of thing at Whipsnade. Perhaps even relocate some of the primate species there (an area in which Dunstable Downs is not well represented at all).
The move back for vicunas is probably to do with all the domesticated in the Childrens Farm and how their wild relatives looked like.
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IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
IF the lions were put onto the Mappin Terraces (which would need a new denning area, but could be done) then maybe the Lion Terraces could be revamped to hold Neotropical carnivores.
Lion/original Leopard enclosures =Spectacled Bear; Tigers = Maned Wolf; middle block (currently holding Francois' langurs) = smallcats/tayra; current macaque enclosure = grisons, which are unusual and probably wouldn't require separation of male and female.
I'm not saying that would be my first choice, but it could be done. London's collection needs more depth in carnivores for a zoo that should always be in the first divison.
I also agree with Kifaru Bwana. London Zoo really can't waste more years on the Mappins/Aquarium in their present state. I would be inclined to take a deep breath, and close the Aquarium. If the darkened halls were used for invertebrates, amphibians, and maybe some nocturnal birds/mammals (fruit bats? tropical owls? kiwis) then some very interesting displays could be created, and the essential problem - the Aquarium - would cease to hold up progress.
Lion/original Leopard enclosures =Spectacled Bear; Tigers = Maned Wolf; middle block (currently holding Francois' langurs) = smallcats/tayra; current macaque enclosure = grisons, which are unusual and probably wouldn't require separation of male and female.
I'm not saying that would be my first choice, but it could be done. London's collection needs more depth in carnivores for a zoo that should always be in the first divison.
I also agree with Kifaru Bwana. London Zoo really can't waste more years on the Mappins/Aquarium in their present state. I would be inclined to take a deep breath, and close the Aquarium. If the darkened halls were used for invertebrates, amphibians, and maybe some nocturnal birds/mammals (fruit bats? tropical owls? kiwis) then some very interesting displays could be created, and the essential problem - the Aquarium - would cease to hold up progress.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Blimey! Has the Northamptonshire sun got to you Ian?
The aquarium is one of the zoo's jewels, and is looking better now than at any time in the past three decades. Losing it would be a catastrophe! Any work on the Mappins has to be completed around the aquarium.