Adelaide Zoo Karta the Orang-utan pregnant

Fingers crossed for a healthy infant and that she will care for it well. I hope all her 'baby lessons' will have paid off. :)
 
Despite what it says in this article about her 'sobbing' (can Orangutans cry?) after her last miscarriage, didn't 'Karta' neglect or abuse, or even kill her previous infants?

I am a bit sceptical about whether 'lessons' on motherhood, using the example of another female, will really improve her mothering skills that much as in a middle-aged female like her, those bad habits must be pretty ingrained by now, but time will tell, provided they can get a fullterm infant of course.
 
Sad news: Statement from Adelaide's facebook :(

[It’s with a heavy heart we announce that Karta the Sumatran Orangutan gave birth to a stillborn infant early this morning. We’re extremely saddened and disappointed that Karta’s infant didn’t survive. Upon initial observations it’s apparent the umbilical cord is wrapped around the infant’s neck. The exact cause of death will be determined by the vet team in the coming days; however it's believed the cord most likely became caught in utero before birth which impeded blood flow to the brain or obstructed breathing during birth. The primate team, although deeply saddened by this loss, has advised that both Karta and her mate Kluet are coping well and will continue to assist Karta in her recovery. As for many primates it’s essential Karta is given the appropriate time and space to mourn the loss of her infant, therefore at this time the orangutan exhibit will be closed until further notice.]
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Sad news. I like the fact that they are so open about it, rather than trying to hide the death from the public.
 
There was an interesting television program on the A.B.C. last night (Fri. 19/7) about Adelaide zoo's attempts at this breeding. Karta and Kluet are apparently extremely closely bonded, and, following the lack of breeding success keepers were very worried that the co-ordinator of the international breeding program would direct that Kluet be "moved on" to another zoo. To their relief, it was decided to leave him, at least for a while further, with Karta.

....which raises the ethical question that - Is it the right thing to split up a closely bonded pair of apes in such a case? Should not apes have more "rights" in this way than other animals? (I personally don't have a position to push. I'm simply asking for other peoples' opinions.)
 
Personally, I would prioritise the welfare of the apes over the potential for breeding, certainly while there is little chance of offspring being released into a safe wild environment in the near future. If the breeding was imperative for an active conservation program my mind may be changed. I'm definitely in favour of great apes being given more rights than they are given at present, but then it's hard to draw lines- why should apes be given more rights than other 'intelligent' species? It's definitely an interesting ethical question.
 
Ara said:
Karta and Kluet are apparently extremely closely bonded, and, following the lack of breeding success keepers were very worried that the co-ordinator of the international breeding program would direct that Kluet be "moved on" to another zoo. To their relief, it was decided to leave him, at least for a while further, with Karta.

....which raises the ethical question that - Is it the right thing to split up a closely bonded pair of apes in such a case?
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'Karta' I think came to Adelaide from San Diego(?) originally. She seems to have a long and unsuccessful breeding history, with infanticide and stillbirths- does she have any surviving (e.g. handraised?) offspring at all?

Regarding splitting up bonded pairs of Apes;

'Kluet' is from Jersey so represents new blood in the Australian Sumatran orangutan population. Obviously it would be of value if he could be bred from if the need arises, but the other OZ holders, Melbourne and Perth probably don't have room to take him anyway.

I think a better option might be for Adelaide to receive females on loan for him to breed with. This way Karta and Kluet could stay together and he could breed with (an)other female(s) also.

On a wider scale, there have been a few instances in the past that I know of, where non-breeding but long-established 'platonic' Gorilla pairs were split up to promote breeding with new partners. In more than one case it created bad publicity and public outcry about the 'bonded' animals being parted but it still went ahead and at least one of the pair(usually the female) bred with a new partner.

I think its less of a problem nowadays as with better understanding of the conditions needed for breeding, and studbook-managed exchange programmes, fewer zoos get to the stage of having long-term 'bonded' non-breeders as they did in the past, so this action is not often necessary.

However a slightly different but related scenario is now becoming more common with Apes- that of removing capable breeders and group leaders of settled breeding groups because they have bred sufficiently and they are then kept solitary or form 'male' groups, as happened with 'Motaba' at Melbourne. No-one seemed to object that he was removed from his leadership of a 'bonded' group, probaby because they were told it was 'natural for him to leave' (it definately isn't, unless he was sick or ousted by a rival male, neither of which applied in his case)). It seems to be a necessary form of management, but I do feel uncomfortable about that situation.:(
 
Adelaide zoo originally obtained their third orangutan 'Puspa' to breed with Kluet and try to promote more positive mothering with Karta. The problem here is that Kluet does not accept Puspa (which could be because he is so close to Karta). I strongly don't think that they should be split up, but I believe that in the near future semen could be taken from Kluet to artificially inseminate Puspa to represent his genes (and from what I'm aware, Kluet and Puspa are the second most valuable pair to the region.)
 
I was very upset to see Motaba separated from his former group, and uncomfortable with this being referred to as a 'natural' progression for the group. I really felt for him as much of the time when I visited he was peering over at them from the top of a pole.

Tiger Taylor said:
Adelaide zoo originally obtained their third orangutan 'Puspa' to breed with Kluet and try to promote more positive mothering with Karta. The problem here is that Kluet does not accept Puspa (which could be because he is so close to Karta). I strongly don't think that they should be split up, but I believe that in the near future semen could be taken from Kluet to artificially inseminate Puspa to represent his genes (and from what I'm aware, Kluet and Puspa are the second most valuable pair to the region.)
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I have wondered why (with Kluet being the most valuable male in the region) Adelaide wasn't sent a female with higher chance of producing an infant than Puspa. As far as I'm aware she has produced only one offspring successfully, Sekara. It is rather unfortunate that Puspa hasn't been able to be successfully introduced to Kluet. Has AI been used successfully in orangutans in the past?

Karta is indeed from San Diego, and has one surviving daughter, Karen, who was sired by Karta's father (not an intentional mating I believe). I believe that Karen has been sterilized.
 
soona said:
I was very upset to see Motaba separated from his former group, and uncomfortable with this being referred to as a 'natural' progression for the group. I really felt for him as much of the time when I visited he was peering over at them from the top of a pole.
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I saw Motaba behave in exactly that way on my first Melbourne visit, when he had been split off and was alone, while the old male 'Buluman' was with the group. And I didn't like it at all when I heard he was being removed yet again some years later, to make way for (non-breeding) Rigo. Everyone said it was great for Rigo- yes it was, but not so good for 'Motaba.'

I accept its a problem when fathers are likely to start mating daughters, or they need to bring in new genetic lines to a group, but I'm still not comfortable with it. Even less so when they say it is 'natural'- the same is being said about Kibabu's move out of the Taronga group.
 
Tiger Taylor said:
The problem here is that Kluet does not accept Puspa (which could be because he is so close to Karta). I strongly don't think that they should be split up, but I believe that in the near future semen could be taken from Kluet to artificially inseminate Puspa to represent his genes (and from what I'm aware, Kluet and Puspa are the second most valuable pair to the region.)
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It sounds to me as if he doesn't like Puspa but that may just be one isolated female- he might accept a different one if it he was given access to one, even though he's obviously bonded with Karta too. From Soona's post it sounds like 'Puspa' wasn't the best choice and genetically surely she is from the most represented pair (Perth's Atjeh x Puan) in the region?
 
Tiger Taylor said:
Adelaide zoo originally obtained their third orangutan 'Puspa' to breed with Kluet and try to promote more positive mothering with Karta. The problem here is that Kluet does not accept Puspa (which could be because he is so close to Karta). I strongly don't think that they should be split up, but I believe that in the near future semen could be taken from Kluet to artificially inseminate Puspa to represent his genes (and from what I'm aware, Kluet and Puspa are the second most valuable pair to the region.)
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Why isn't this done with bonded orangutan pairs? Is AI not successful in orangutans?
 
There has been talk about it, but I personally have never heard of any successful attempts, although there could be some out there somewhere
 
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