Parental Control of Child Visitors

[Pertinax]

The problem is lack of discipline. If your kids cant behave don't take them to these places.

The one leads to the other. The only reason those children 'can't behave' is because they have never been taught to. Its the same with Dogs....

 

[Javan Rhino]

There was always a good way to get me to behave when I was young, it was called discipline.

I'd do something naughty, get my backside rattled for it and then I'd know not to do it again because my a*se still stung from the last time.

Of course, do that these days and you get the full force of the law thrown at you. Funny how back in the day when there was corporal punishment in schools children/teenagers showed a hell of a lot more respect for their elders. Children don't care these days, because they can kick off as much as they want and even hit the teacher/parent and they are powerless to do anything about it.

 

[Gigit]

This reminds me of my visit to Chester last year. In the butterfly house some 9ish year old girls were picking up a large butterfly. I suggested it wasn't a good idea and they just replied 'but we want to'. As with the young girl destroying plants whom I mentioned earlier, they gave no indication that they were used to an adult 'telling them what to do'.

(It sounds as though I'm constantly reprimanding young children at zoos, but these were the only times I've done it in recent years I worked with pre-school children for 10 years before retiring and would have been very surprised if they'd carried on behaving badly after being spoken to.)

 

[sooty mangabey]

Quite a few hoary old chestnuts are being pushed out in this discussion:

• children are revolting
• their parents are, often, even more revolting
• teachers are the most revolting of the lot
• what they all need is a great deal more discipline
• it wasn't like this in my day

As a teacher, and as a parent, and as someone who was once a child, might I just ask whether, back in the good old days when children knew what a good clip round the ear meant, when teachers demanded respect, when.... all that stuff.... were things really so much better? If I had gone to Chester Zoo in the 1960s, when a school trip was in the place, would those children have been behaving impeccably? Were visitors back then all quite wonderful, showing the utmost respect for the wonders of nature with which they were being presented? Is it only in recent decades that, when we observe large groups of children, away from their 'home patch', with minimal supervision, we may see some behaving in a fashion that is less than perfect?

For what they're worth, my own views on the subject:

• some children are undoubtedly revolting
• the overwhelming majority are not
• when children are revolting, it is usually their upbringing that is at the root of this
• things are a great deal better now than they were when I was growing up in the 1970s; the respect that is shown to living creatures has increased infinitely since then, and the behaviour of the general public in zoos has improved massively
• zoos are not the place for an end-of-term jolly; if they accept school groups under those circumstances, they are asking for trouble; they need to balance the income from these groups with the loss of income from those visitors put-off by having inadvertently entered a scene from the later sections of The Lord of the Flies, as well as any damage that is done to the zoo or, of course, the zoo's inhabitants. I would like to think that no zoo is so desperate for cash that it couldn't make this call.
• things are no better or worse, in other countries - I have seen shocking behaviour in Germany and Holland, for example; the natural proclivity of children to tomfoolery does not alter depending on national borders
• hitting badly-behaved children - the Javan Rhino approach - does not turn them into well-behaved children; it turns them into badly-behaved children who have been shown that violence is the way to solve a problem.

 

[Pertinax]

If I had gone to Chester Zoo in the 1960s, when a school trip was in the place, would those children have been behaving impeccably?

I can remember Bristol Zoo in the 1950-60's era and the large groups of younger school children being brought to visit the zoo from places as far away as Cardiff, and the excited babble as they unloaded from their coaches outside the Zoo. But from memory, inside the Zoo they always seemed orderly enough and under control, though noisy obviously. The mass visits for Secondary school-aged children seem to have been a more recent innovation perhaps, so may be didn't apply then.

 

[Pertinax]

[*]zoos are not the place for an end-of-term jolly; if they accept school groups under those circumstances, they are asking for trouble; they need to balance the income from these groups with the loss of income from those visitors put-off by having inadvertently entered a scene from the later sections of The Lord of the Flies, as well as any damage that is done to the zoo or, of course, the zoo's inhabitants. I would like to think that no zoo is so desperate for cash that it couldn't make this call.

That's exactly my feeling. Unfortunately, I think few zoos are prepared to make any such discrimination though.

 

[FBBird]

Parental Control of...

Any other education experts on here want to have a pop at teachers?

 

[Pertinax]

Any other education experts on here want to have a pop at teachers?

I am not sure anyone here is 'having a pop at teachers' particularly. What concerns me is the cumulative effect of 1.lack of home discipline 2.school organisation 3.lack of supervision on the actual visit, that allows large groups of schoolchildren to rampage through zoos, as I have experienced on several occassions.

 

[Shorts]

Funny how back in the day when there was corporal punishment in schools children/teenagers showed a hell of a lot more respect for their elders.

You seem very certain about this given you weren't around when there was corporal punishment in schools.

I was at school at the time, I was hit and turned out reasonably OK (I think) but that was in spite of the regime not because of it.

Corporal punishment was part of a framework of parental discipline and school discipline and part of a completely different society faced with completely different media than it is today. Basically if it was right then (which I'd debate) it wouldn't work now anyway.

I saw things in that era that were very wrong:
Teachers overreacting with violence to very minor infringements;
Teachers punching pupils in the face;
Pupils beaten (hit over a dozen times with a training shoe in one session) at primary school level.

And these were good schools with reputations that put up property prices in the area!

These actions were largely accepted as it was the way things were and who would listen to a pupil over a teacher anyway (echos of far darker stuff seen in the media this last year). These things did not engender respect for the teachers involved by me or my fellow pupils-at best we feared them, at worst we disrespected them and as a result we either became more mischievous in lessons (for some once you've been hit and survived you don't fear it anymore) or learned less well than we might have done. The teachers that got our attention and are still remembered as great teachers are the ones that never needed to resort to capital*** punishment -they could achieve discipline by engaging us in a subject and still be strict without hitting anyone. Personally, I believe the teachers who hit pupils were poor teachers desperately trying to control a class when they were completely out of their depth and probably in the wrong profession (but tied to it to pay the bills).

Sorry to meander off thread so much I just wanted to nail the continual myth of corporal punishment working.

Right, back to zoos and animals............

*** that should, of course, read "corporal" though I'm sure the Daily Mail would approve.

 

[Javan Rhino]

I think if corporal punishment is misused in such a way then yes, it is wrong. I'm probably using the wrong word, I'm thinking more of a clip around the ear/smacked bottom.

All I'm saying is that if I misbehaved then I would get a smack, and getting a smack made me know it was wrong.

Agreed it may be more of a media thing though, it probably wouldn't work in today's day. I always thought that lack of a good smack to teach right from wrong was what the chav/scally/happy slapper culture was born from, because teenagers know that if they hit somebody older and the person hits them back, then it is the chav that is felt sorry for! I can't see the logic in that.

I was brought up by the smack, and I do defend that.

 

[Gigit]

The teachers that got our attention and are still remembered as great teachers are the ones that never needed to resort to capital punishment -

Good grief! What school did you go to

 

[Shorts]

Good grief! What school did you go to

Good spot. My error is so funny I'm not changing it (merely putting in an explanatory note).

 

[Shorts]

I think if corporal punishment is misused in such a way then yes, it is wrong. I'm probably using the wrong word, I'm thinking more of a clip around the ear/smacked bottom.

I'm not denying there's an argument for an odd slap or whatever, just that I don't trust all teachers to know where to draw a line. I understand the classic argument of a parent smacking a child when they're about to put their finger in a plug socket but that's coming from (hopefully) a figure of love delivering a whole parenting package. Given modern society I believe it's easier to outlaw teachers from hitting pupils rather than risking some teachers going "too far" (however one chooses to define it) or waste time policing and legally arguing about "appropriate levels" of physical punishment. Again, a good teacher (or parent) really shouldn't need to resort to smacking -Super Nanny doesn't!

I always thought that lack of a good smack to teach right from wrong was what the chav/scally/happy slapper culture was born from

On the contrary, in my own experience it's those that one might label as above that are more likely to (over) use smacking as a punishment. A number of times I've seen small children "leathered" to their incomprehension for minor infractions-that doesn't instill discipline, just confusion and violence as a way of being. Plus, as I said before, for many once they've been (physically) punished and survived there's not really much of a deterrent -as evidenced by career criminals (but that's another debate).

Now, back to the zoos and animals.......

 

[Brum]

I see that I've missed a lot of this debate due to work, which is a shame!
I agree with JR that a short, sharp smack on the hand/bum/back of head is a great tool when used by a parent. I'm not advocating beating a child, just a hard enough tap to make them realise what they've done is wrong. I don't recommend corporal punishment as (as mentioned by shorts) it can be open to abuse by a teacher in a bad mood or whom has anger issues. I got the occasional smack whilst growing up and it never did me any harm, I'm not violent, I have manners and I have respect. I wouldn't hit my own kids (all girls, mommy deals out the discipline! ) but they know that a tap means they've done wrong and if they've done something that is deserving of being hit then they are extremely apologetic. They are not angels but they are a long, long way from being bad kids.
As I've previously stated, they behave at the zoo! Other places, not quite so good but that is a different story for a different website... Apparently they behave on school trips as well though!

Sorry for the long rambling post but I have a lot to say on this subject and did miss the most heated parts of this debate and wanted to put my tuppence worth in.

 

[TARZAN]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Tarzan: I could launch into a run down of my career before teaching. I became a teacher at 31 and took a £10,000 pay cut to do so. Not easy for a single working class woman, but I won't as you know so much more about all teachers than me, and this argument will just go round and round in circles. You've obviously had bad experiences that have clouded your judgement and this can only let you talk about education professionals in generalised terms, which was the point of my first post.

I don't dispute that some school parties behave inappropriately and should be spoken to, whether by teachers or zoo staff. I'd certainly be mortified if someone else felt that they had to chastise my groups, I don't take my eyes off them for a minute.

My advice to anyone having issues would be complain to the school in question (its not hard to find out who the school is), my head would not be happy with staff or teachers that generated a complaint!

Yes Maz, you are correct, I have had bad experiences regarding the teaching profession, but not with teachers I had as a child, a bit closer to home with my own relations. First, a cousin of mine was sent to a private school by her parents who made great personal sacrifices to finance this, my Aunt, now 93 told my mother that my cousin was going to be a teacher, and after the private girls school and college she became a teacher of modern languages at the girls grammar school in the town, all was going well until Mr. Wilson the prime minister made us comprehensive, my cousin went from teaching "la crème de la crème" in the grammer school to attempting to teach modern languages to pupils turning up pregnant, smoking etc, the catchment area to this school was near to a very rough , notorious estate that has now been demolished. As time progressed, this affected my cousin's health, her job had been her life, no husband and family of her own apart from a Labrador dog, her nerves got really bad and suffered so badly she had to be pensioned off at still quite a young age on the grounds of ill health, she has never worked since and still suffers with her nerves. The point I am making here Maz is if perhaps if she had more life experience , as our friend from Dorset mentioned on a previous post, she would never had suffered from this, and be prepared for people who had not come from perhaps a sheltered and cozy world in which she had been brought up.Secondly, my father's brother, trained to be a teacher and married one while training, from a small child he had bred and kept rabbits, he and his wife later moved to another part of the county, not far from a zoo at the time that was doing well with television tea commercials This gentleman did give me when he lived here a pet rabbit when I was 2 years old, and I am pleased to say I still have pet rabbits to this day. We were invited to the new house when they moved, one day I enquired to this gentleman what we were having for dinner, he promptly took me and his young son, I would have three, my cousin two to the shed at the bottom of the garden, he pulled arather frightened looking Havana Rex out of a hutch, "this is what we are having for dinner lad"he said and proceeded to lift a wooden stick towards the animal's neck. I was horrified, and ran to the house screaming, followed by this gentleman strongly protesting to his younger brother"sonny, get your little brat under control immediately", at this point my mother intervened, who are you calling sonny she enquired, you might have letters after your name but you haven't got them before, a big bust up followed, my grandfather indeed informing this gentleman, his son that he was nothing but a s*** house and so was his wife, who by this time was also tears.After this barney it was later agreed that I could take the rabbit home with me, live!, as a pet, things were never the same after this, in fact this gentleman died in 1997, nobody informed my father about this, I only discovered this two years ago while searching the internet, and to be honest I am not sorry he is dead, looking back, to attempt to kill a rabbit infront of his son and nephew, and this is a man who was intrusted with kids at school, I bet he was handy with the cane, incidently the rabbit lived to a good age

 

[kaytronika]

There is evidence in zoo news magazines to suggest that Mr Mottershead had problems with the youth of the 1960s causing damage to Chester Zoo property, so it's certainly not a recent thing.

I suspect its the usual small percentage of people who can't behave ruining things for those who can... Of course, we notice the people who can't behave that bit more than those who do.

 

[Taisha]

Once I came across a standoff between a school class and a Mandrill, who tried to defend his very small territory behind the glass. Both sides got more and more excited.
When I explained what had triggered his behaviour, the children became very quiet, and the teacher apologized, that she had not known anything about it.
A solution might be to employ more voluntaries at all zoos as surveillance.
Zoo Leipzig seems to use this possibility.

Sometimes I am a bit in despair about the discussions on ZooChat. Does ist really matter if you were smacked in your childhood and the conclusions you draw personally from this fact? The problem has to be solved now.

 

[Pootle]

I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you....


....As for Chester Zoo these days, unless winter time I try to visit school term time, arrive at opening time, if the school trip numbers get heavy, we leave and go for lunch outside the zoo or pop into Chester town centre and return to the zoo post 3pm when most school trips are leaving. Thus getting the best and quietest hours their.

 

[Chlidonias]

I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you....

'tis true that! The young folk of today don't know how lucky they be!!

 

[Pertinax]

....As for Chester Zoo these days, unless winter time I try to visit school term time, arrive at opening time, if the school trip numbers get heavy, we leave and go for lunch outside the zoo or pop into Chester town centre and return to the zoo post 3pm when most school trips are leaving. Thus getting the best and quietest hours their.

That is very enlightening. It sounds as if nothing has changed since my own bad experience there. Its a bit extreme when other visitors have to plan their visiting hours to deliberately avoid such groups. I wonder if you have made Chester Zoo aware of that?