Barbary lion DNA testing

But how much of a bottleneck did Asiatic Lion survive a century ago? It has been suggested that they were down to a mere dozen at one point. Some species can get through amazingly low levels - Pere David's Deer might just descend from a single pair held in Berlin Zoo in the 1870s, which in turn were the ancestors of all eighteen animals assembled by the Duke of Bedford at Woburn.
 
Barbary Lion ......

The trick with bottlenecked species is to breed in large numbers & get them OUT of the bottleneck; this was done with Southern White Rhino, Nene & Pere David Deer.
 
dogman said:
are the collections you are talking about really lying to you and saying they have pure barbary's or are you just not listening or making your own judgements, lets look at some other sub spp for instance it is now well recognised that the asiatic lion population is pretty stuffed yet no one kicks off about them being bred by every zoo
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The discussion about the purity of Barbary Lions has arisen time and time again on this Forum. The question has been asked again here, which is why it is being discussed again now. As for 'are Zoos lying ?' the science dictates that they are, not necessarily deliberately in some cases perhaps, but they are in most cases promoting animals which don't contain any of the genetic coding for Barbary Lions.

The comparison with Asian Lions is irrelevant-here there is no arguement about whether the Asian Lions in captivity are pure or not- they are, while all those in existence, both wild and in captivity, are descended from a very small population- perhaps twenty animals, which is all that was left in the Gir Forest in India after they were nearly hunted into extinction. So they may be well able to withstand the effects of inbreeding anyway.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Indeed, I was merely noting that the area of overlap was Egypt.

Personally I've always found it more interesting to recall that Asiatic Lions were found in the Balkans until relatively recently, historically speaking.
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Yes, the distribution maps show a continuous range between North Africa and Western India, including the Middle East, and also northwards into Greece and beyond. The current Asian Lion population seems to be a tiny pocket that was left in the extreme east of the range and Barbaries were at the more western end. I guess they would still be very closely related even now.
 
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Pertinax said:
Yes, the distribution maps show a continuous range between North Africa and Western India, including the Middle East, and also northwards into Greece and beyond. The current Asian Lion population seems to be a tiny pocket that was left in the extreme west of the range and Barbaries were at the more Eastern end. I guess they would still be very closely related even now.
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Interesting perspective on geography Pertinax ;)
 
Pertinax said:
No, they couldn't be quite continuous into Greece etc, could they?;) But they were certainly on both sides of the Bosphorus.
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Oh, they were indeed continuous into Greece at one point; but I too noticed you got east and west confused ;)
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Much as new blood is appreciated, these imports are insufficient - for a viable long term population, without the same issue coming up again in a few decades, we'll need about 15,25 individuals to come in.
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zoogiraffe said:
Sorry its to little to late they needed these animals 10 years ago!!If they had brought another 20 in with these new imports,there may have been a chance,but they didn't so I am sorry to say Asian Lions could die out in Europe in my life time!
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I know we're not still viable at the moment but if the recent trend of importing new blood is ongoing and not just a freak occurrence then surely we could breed out from the depression?
If we get no new stock then I wholeheartedly agree that the subspecies is likely doomed!
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Oh, they were indeed continuous into Greece at one point; but I too noticed you got east and west confused ;)
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Surely, the Roman Empire put more or less paid to an European / Mediterranean lion population!

As for Asian lions: give the new attempts / deals to get much needed new blood ex India a bit more time to come through. After years of stagnation something has finally given. India is willing to work for / export the species to European zoos (after all Europe has been quite successful with the species as it is).

On the cards still are Aalborg, Rotterdam and Praha.
 
DDcorvus said:
I meant more about your mix up of west and east ;).
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oops!. That was bad:o- I have changed it. I was thinking about how the Asiatics were confined to 'Western' India rather than probably the whole subcontinent- that's my excuse anyway.
 
Brum said:
If we get no new stock then I wholeheartedly agree that the subspecies is likely doomed!
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I take it you are referring to the captive population only? The current population in Gir Forest is continuously expanding- or trying to do so- which is why they are continually faced with space problems. Being derived from somewhere around twenty individuals at their lowest ebb seems not to have affected this population in any apparent way.

The captive population may been similarly resiliant, though it originated only from (was it?) eight animals. On the otherhand, quite a lot of captive born cubs DNS for various reasons.
 
Pertinax said:
But is it? The current population in Gir Forest is continuously expanding- or trying to do so- which is why they are continually faced with space problems. Being derived from somewhere around twenty individuals at their lowest ebb seems not to have affected this population in any apparent way.

The captive population may reflect this too, though it originated only from (was it?) eight animals. On the otherhand, quite a lot of captive born cubs DNS for various reasons.
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I'm sorry, I only meant doomed in captivity. In the wild the Gir forest has become overpopulated and they really do need to think about redistributing some of the animals to elsewhere.
If KB is right about Aalborg, Praha and Rotterdam being interested and they import 1.2 each then that alone is more than the (possible) eight that were used to start the population.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Surely, the Roman Empire put more or less paid to an European / Mediterranean lion population!
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More or less; I believe the last definite records of lions in Greece date to something like the first century, with their disappearance from the rest of the Balkans and Eastern Thrace coming a few centuries after that.
 
Brum said:
I'm sorry, I only meant doomed in captivity.
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That's what I thought you meant, but wasn't quite sure.

But if around twenty Lions can give rise, apparently without problem. to the population of several hundred in existence now in the Gir, can't eight Zoo lions, plus hopefully some new additions now, produce a (smaller) population in zoos similarly without a problem?
 
Pertinax said:
That's what I thought you meant, but wasn't quite sure.

But if around twenty Lions can give rise, apparently without problem. to the population of several hundred in existence now in the Gir, can't eight Zoo lions, plus hopefully some new additions now, produce a (smaller) population in zoos similarly without a problem?
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As I understand it, the current issues are partially due to the fact that the original founders of the European captive population were very closely related to begin with, and therefore unlike the twenty or so founders of the wild population (which were still relatively genetically diverse, considering how bottlenecked the population had become) has effectively been doubly-bottlenecked, and thus concentrated various undesirable mutations such as congenital strabismus and deformed ankle joints in the population.

This is part of the issue regarding new blood - the old blood is so inbred and full of detrimental mutations that any new blood should be used to start an entirely new line, rather than feeding into the old line.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
has effectively been doubly-bottlenecked, and thus concentrated various undesirable mutations such as congenital strabismus and deformed ankle joints in the population.

This is part of the issue regarding new blood - the old blood is so inbred and full of detrimental mutations that any new blood should be used to start an entirely new line, rather than feeding into the old line.
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Thanks for the explanation. I can see there is evidently a clear difference between the two situations. Its a great pity additional 'unrelated' Lions couldn't have been added after the first few years of captive breeding- seems it has been left far too late.
 
H'mm. This does make me wonder about how the studbook has been managed. Remember, this is an animal that only came into Europe some twenty years ago. Maybe they would have done better to have just let them breed, and swap animals with Sakkarbaug or somewhere else in India as swiftly as possible.

Another thought: the effective founder population is probably very small. Male lion coalitions tend to be brothers; it wouldn't surprise me if all Asiatic Lions descend from no more than two or three males at most.
 
IanRRobinson said:
H'mm. This does make me wonder about how the studbook has been managed. Remember, this is an animal that only came into Europe some twenty years ago. Maybe they would have done better to have just let them breed, and swap animals with Sakkarbaug or somewhere else in India as swiftly as possible.

Another thought: the effective founder population is probably very small. Male lion coalitions tend to be brothers; it wouldn't surprise me if all Asiatic Lions descend from no more than two or three males at most.
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It is all fairly easy stating this ..., just sadly the Indian zoos have not exactly been exemplary in cross continental exchange of wildlife. It has been fraught with huge paper work and bureacracy, often so mind-boggling I would need an entire FB page just to explain the impossibilities and impracticalities there.

Thankfully, since the Conservation Breeding conference and several reknowned Western zoo folks attending this conference in India to bring Indian zoos in line with WAZA and the rest of the conservation breeding fraternity things are starting to improve.

Not saying it is easy, but you have to go through the motions to get to strike a mutual deal in species like tiger, gaur, rhino, lion and others. There is surely a beneficial effect for both EAZA and CZA there and loads of potential.

Inbreeding was on the cards from the start given that only just some 10 or so individuals actually were imported in the first place. However, the perspective is good and that alone Sakkaurbaug Zoo in JUNAGADH holds about 20+ lions that are directly wild caught and non-breeding at the facility. Most of these are still fairly young and would be well away in the EAZA programme. I am really expecting things to improve quite substantially sooner rather than later.
 
IanRRobinson said:
Another thought: the effective founder population is probably very small. Male lion coalitions tend to be brothers; it wouldn't surprise me if all Asiatic Lions descend from no more than two or three males at most.
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Asian Lions are rather less social generally speaking- a couple of females with their cubs, maybe the father joining and leaving from time to time. Perhaps two sibling males living together- that sort of thing. But if there were only around twenty Lions at their lowest ebb, only around half of them would have been males and doubtless they were all related at least to some extent
 
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