ZSL London Zoo London zoos Gorllias updates

Tigerlemurguy said:
they were shut in when i visted last year
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Last year there were only the three and they couldn't all be kept together. Usually one was shut outside and two in, and then they were swapped over. Now they have a more peaceful grouping they don't have to be seperated on that basis. I suspect they are shut out in fine weather and maybe have free choice on less good days/off season.
 
Pertinax said:
suspect they are shut out in fine weather and maybe have free choice on less good days/off season.
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Which is wrong of them to do so, I dont know why if they can't provide natural shelter that they dont erect some sort of canopy up to give them some cover.
 
Yes it was poor weather on Saturday. But one of the gorillas (a female, don't know which) voluntarily went outside in the morning. At the end of the day the whole group went outside - I suspect they had been fed.
 
Im no expert, but for me the way forward in exhibiting gorillas is to create a kind of outside 'inside' environment. The example that springs to mind is the Congo Gorilla Rainforest exhibit in the Bronx zoo. As Pertinax says many zoos privide large spaces of outdoor grass for Gorillas which they clearly do not like to use too often. Sure, the cost would be massive, but the benefits for the group AND the paying public would be massive.
 
scottie31 said:
Im no expert, but for me the way forward in exhibiting gorillas is to create a kind of outside 'inside' environment. The example that springs to mind is the Congo Gorilla Rainforest exhibit in the Bronx zoo. As Pertinax says many zoos privide large spaces of outdoor grass for Gorillas which they clearly do not like to use too often. Sure, the cost would be massive, but the benefits for the group AND the paying public would be massive.
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This can be down cheaply, but then reflects badly on the zoo even if it does cater for all the gorillas needs.

Zoos need to learn that wide opened grassed areas may look nice but the gorillas are hardly going to use them!
 
scottie31 said:
Im no expert, but for me the way forward in exhibiting gorillas is to create a kind of outside 'inside' environment. Sure, the cost would be massive, but the benefits for the group AND the paying public would be massive.
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That would indeed be the way to go if zoos could afford to do it. As Taun suggested, another way might be to erect a huge(green?)canopy over the entire outdoor display! The simplest way is to plant a load of trees which provide plenty of overhead shelter when they grow up- but even quick-growing trees take a number of years to be effective. Some good examples of outdoor islands with good tree cover are; Apenheul, Melbourne (& increasingly Jersey's enclosure).

Unfortunately the tendency in building for Gorillas recently(rather like with Lions or Tigers)is to provide the largest outdoor enclosures the zoo can provide as visitors are happiest with that concept. Only later does it prove these enclosures are underused,yet zoos are still continuing to copy each other in building this style of enclosure (island or 'bai') because they look' nice' for the viewing public. I read that some of the Gorillas at Munich zoo never ventured into their 'wonderful' new open outdoor enclosure at all in the first two years...
 
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Chris79 said:
At the end of the day the whole group went outside - I suspect they had been fed.
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That's the usual way to get them outside at any given time. Having 'free choice' is less stressful for them- but its not such a good display for the public- or if you want to take photos....
 
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Pertinax said:
Unfortunately the tendency in building for Gorillas recently(rather like with Lions or Tigers)is to provide the largest outdoor enclosures the zoo can provide as visitors are happiest with that concept. Only later does it prove these enclosures are underused,yet zoos are still continuing to copy each other in building this style of enclosure (island or 'bai') because they look' nice' for the viewing public. I read that some of the Gorillas at Munich zoo never ventured into their 'wonderful' new open outdoor enclosure at all in the first two years...
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So true, I wonder if they ever look at studies done it to animals behaviour in these type of exhibits? I gather they see the feedback from Vistors and say "Well the vistors like it, lets copy it".

Am hoping IF Chester go back into housing gorillas they will do something to be proud of, not another GK disaster!
 
taun said:
So true, I wonder if they ever look at studies done it to animals behaviour in these type of exhibits? I gather they see the feedback from Vistors and say "Well the vistors like it, lets copy it".

Am hoping IF Chester go back into housing gorillas they will do something to be proud of, not another GK disaster!
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Bristol recently put a web camera on the outside wall of their open enclosure. I wouldn't expect to see much on it apart from during the public feeding session. A researcher there logged their male 'Jock' as spending something like 95% of his time indoors..and one female, (Romina) is nearly always to be found wherever he is too. The public are still fed the idea of them having a 'lovely open space' to roam about in, even though their day is spent largely just sitting indoors.


If Chester do have Gorillas again it would be great if they could avoid the pitfalls of the 'small inside/big outside' style enclosure which is at the root of the problem.
 
Pertinax said:
Bristol recently put a web camera on the outside wall of their open enclosure. I wouldn't expect to see much on it apart from during the public feeding session. A researcher there logged their male 'Jock' as spending something like 95% of his time indoors..and one female, (Romina) is nearly always to be found wherever he is too. The public are still fed the idea of them having a 'lovely open space' to roam about in, even though their day is spent largely just sitting indoors.
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Bristols outside enclosure is very lush and has losts of vegation. Where as GK seems to just be a lawn with a tree??? Some of it quite tall (1.5m) when I was last there. plus its varied height makes it better than GK.

Pertinax said:
If Chester do have Gorillas again it would be great if they could avoid the pitfalls of the 'small inside/big outside' style enclosure which is at the root of the problem.
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Well I think RORA and the new Cheetah enclosure show what chester are capable and willing to do. I expect any new enclosure at chester to be of an even higher standard.
 
taun said:
Bristols outside enclosure is very lush and has losts of vegation. Where as GK seems to just be a lawn with a tree??? Some of it quite tall (1.5m) when I was last there. plus its varied height makes it better than GK.
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I don't think it makes too much difference. A lot of Gorillas just don't seem to like being outside in 'exposed' areas too much.....Vegetation wise I think GK is already better than when it opened and it should(I hope) get thicker over time. If they'd just plant some more live trees in there (hotwire them at least to start with) among the dead ones...

At Chester I think ROTRA is more along the right lines as far as ratio of indoor/outdoor is concerned, though I wonder how much they will actually use the lavish outdoor enclosures?
 
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Pertinax said:
Bristol recently put a web camera on the outside wall of their open enclosure. I wouldn't expect to see much on it apart from during the public feeding session. A researcher there logged their male 'Jock' as spending something like 95% of his time indoors..and one female, (Romina) is nearly always to be found wherever he is too. The public are still fed the idea of them having a 'lovely open space' to roam about in, even though their day is spent largely just sitting indoors.


If Chester do have Gorillas again it would be great if they could avoid the pitfalls of the 'small inside/big outside' style enclosure which is at the root of the problem.
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everytime i have been jock has been indoors but the recent mother and baby seem to be outside alot when i go, maybe they should do an indoor webcam :D
 
Pertinax said:
The size of the ZSL group is effectively governed by the size of the 'dayroom'(and offshow night dens) - I heard that it was designed for '5 adults' (or 4 adults + a couple of offspring). I say the 'dayroom' because this is where the animals will presumably spend more time in the winter months and in very bad weather, and they need to be able to space themselves out. The outdoor island would easily hold more but of course they can't be out there all the time. I think Gentle Lemur's estimate of the future group size(if they breed that is) is spot on- 4 adults + up to 4 offspring.

Where zoos like London & Bristol have a problem is in the ratio of indoor/outdoor housing- they create these very large open outdoor areas the animals prefer not to use (London's are SHUT outside during the day, Bristol's aren't), contrasting with much smaller indoor exhibit areas (because of the building costs) that can only house a limited number of animals but its the smaller indoor areas that govern the group's size. Bristol, for example, couldn't really add even one more female to their group because the indoor area isn't big enough. In London's case I doubt if any more females will be added at present- they will be focusing on producing young from the settled group they have now. And if we don't hear on the grapevine of pregnancies to either Mjuku or Effie(or preferably both) fairly soon now, then we will know there is a problem with Bobby/Bongo.
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I agree entirely with this analysis. As I have said here before, I think Port Lympne's housing for Djala's group is the best in the UK. Plenty of space, wooded outdoor enclosure with diverse natural vegetation, a covered area with straw and the private indoor areas, which are virtually invisible to the public (and rather dark, which I presume is deliberate). They encourage the gorillas to use the outdoor area by scatterfeeds twice daily, but this year I saw them using it more than ever; I think this is because they have allowed the natural vegetation to grow more and the apes like to forage 'between meals'.
I wonder if we have overlooked something about 'Gorilla Kingdom'. Has anyone seen the plans? It occurs to me that the indoor den next to the colobus, which currently houses a large monitor lizard, is otherwise one of the old Sobell dens. If the gorillas' night dens connect to it, it could be used as an extra 'dayroom' if the group grows.

Alan
 
Tigerlemurguy said:
everytime i have been jock has been indoors but the recent mother and baby seem to be outside alot when i go, maybe they should do an indoor webcam :D
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Salome, the 2nd female, does at present spend much more time outside than the other two. There is a reason for this- she is obviously very nervous of Jock and keeps as far away from him as she can. Last time I went she stayed outside the whole time, mostly behind the 'shelter' EXCEPT during the public feeding. As the others were coming out, she headed straight indoors using the other entrance so as not to meet them, stayed there during the whole feed but immediately came outside, again via the other entrance, as Jock & Romina went inside again.

I don't know how long this has been going on but Jock bit her very badly when they were first introduced. Fortunately he mates with her when she's in oestrus but otherwise I don't think he likes her that much or she's frightened of him, whereas Romina is his No 1 wife, nearly always close at hand.
 
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gentle lemur;72170 It occurs to me that the indoor den next to the colobus said:
I don't think space will be an issue for this group for some time to come...;)

I agree Djala's enclosure has the best balance in a UK enclosure- the big covered Gorillarium plus an increasingly WOODED outdoor enclosure. The animals are probably happy to use all the areas available to them though I still only occassionally seem them outdoors even here.
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They are old photos (in spite of the date on the Flickr page). They may well be scans as they have no EXIF data.

Alan
 
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