Lowland Gorillas in Europe 2014

[Willard]

{Note from mods - this thread continues from here: Lowland gorillas in Europe 2013}




Castration

I can't find the thread(s) where Gorilla castration was discussed previously. As far as I know its only been done a couple of times until now- Kukuma born at Apenheul and who died at Belfast as adult a couple of years ago was probably the first. Then there is 'Loango' at Kerkrade, also born in Apenheul, who was done in 2007. I don't know of any others until this new batch.

The thread on that matter, from 2008, is here: Gorilla Casteration

And here is an up-to-date list of gorillas castrated by the EEP:

• Kukuma #2089 - Belfast
• Loango #1818 - Apenheul
• D'jomo #1986 - Vallee des Singes
• Zungu #1704 - Basel
• Mosi #2040 - Gaiapark
• Bembosi #2081 - Amsterdam
• Shambe #2082 - Amsterdam
• Mapenzi #2046 - Beauval
• Mbula #2024 - Chessington
• Mwana #2108 - Chessington

Please note that Bembosi's brother Shambe is listed too, and their brother Douli will probably be next.

 

[Pertinax]

Castration.

Wow, didn't realise the list has got this long, or that it includes the two young males born recently at Chessington. It seems more places are accepting this is the only alternative for some of their young males now.

One question- 'Zungu' at Basel is already 12 years old and I never heard anything about him being castrated previously. Was he done more recently perhaps, or maybe at an earlier age and it was just not publicised at all?

.

 

[Willard]

Castration

Zungu is listed. I don't know when he was castrated. He and silverback Kisoro are suffering from a fox tapeworm infection, a terminal disease. In humans, it leads to death within 10 - 15 years. I can only guess that they thought it's better to castrate him and leave him in the group for the rest of his days.
BTW the list is about one week old and comes from an EEP official. According to him, "less than four" other males currently are recommended for castration.

 

[Pertinax]

Zungu is listed. I don't know when he was castrated. He and silverback Kisoro are suffering from a fox tapeworm infection, a terminal disease. In humans, it leads to death within 10 - 15 years.
BTW the list is about one week old and comes from an EEP official. According to him, "less than four" other males currently are recommended for castration.

By coincidence, some years ago a young male (Nangi?) was sent to Wuppertal from Basel along with adult male Tamtam, and Nangi died from Fox tapeworm. I presumed he had contracted it at Wuppertal as Basel had no real outdoor area in those days but who knows? Presumably they reach fox scats which are outside the enclosure?

Castration- I imagine the plan is for these 'castrati' to stay in their natal groups (if possible) as an alternative to forming more fresh male groups. If only four more or less are to be done, presumably they will also be from the most heavily represented lines.

 

[Willard]

...Nangi died from Fox tapeworm. I presumed he had contracted it at Wuppertal as Basel had no real outdoor area in those days but who knows? Presumably they reach fox scats which are outside the enclosure?

Castration- I imagine the plan is for these 'castrati' to stay in their natal groups (if possible) as an alternative to forming more fresh male groups. If only four more or less are to be done, presumably they will also be from the most heavily represented lines.

I was wondering too how they would get in contact with fox scat. But the worm is also transmitted by other animals like mice, that can easily enter the outdoor enclosure.

Castration: That's exactly the problem - there are not enough zoos around to house fresh male groups, but the EEP doesn't want to commit to a more restrictive breeding policy and tries to solve the problem they've created themselves by implementing castrations. Just "collateral damage" to them I guess. And why is it that the American SSP can do without castrations as a husbandry tool? However, ultimately it's an ethical question, and I believe that maiming young males for the sake of population management and in the name of conserving an endangered species is outright wrong.

 

[zooman]

However, ultimately it's an ethical question, and I believe that maiming young males for the sake of population management and in the name of conserving an endangered species is outright wrong.

Hi Willard,

I totally agree with you that it is outright wrong to casterate male surplus gorillas.

However l have visited many zoos with solitary males and bachelor groups and after speaking with many of the keepers. Bachelor groups are not a solution for all males due to incapability and the flow on effect of stress.

I actually wonder if part of the heart problem of male in captivity is stress related.

Euthanasia has been suggested to me on several occasions as it is a better option than a long life of stress and isolation.

I don't agree with any of these solutions but l do wonder what is in the long term best interest of the gorilla??

 

[Pertinax]

And why is it that the American SSP can do without castrations as a husbandry tool? However, ultimately it's an ethical question, and I believe that maiming young males for the sake of population management and in the name of conserving an endangered species is outright wrong.

From what I can gather, a lot of the surplus males in America are kept in solitary or pair situations, often offshow as they seem to have experienced lots of incompatability problems with male groupings. In Europe there aren't too many living like that- at least at present.

Castration of male Gorillas doesn't sit easily with me either. But other than bachelor groups, the only other realistic option available would be to control breeding so severely that most groups became childless after a few years, and therefore not natural social units anymore. What a long way we have come in my lifetime, I can remember when a baby Gorilla birth was like gold-dust- 'only the 4th to be born in a zoo' or 'first ever in the UK' etc.

 

[Jabiru96]

Maybe surplus/over-represented animals in captivity can be sent to Africa to either be released into the wild or be used in breeding programs in their native countries (e.g. Limbe Wildlife Centre). Who knows, the over-represented captive lines could very much be under-represented or even extinct in the wild so would be useful for wild gorilla genetics.

 

[Pertinax]

Bachelor groups are not a solution for all males due to incapability and the flow on effect of stress.

I actually wonder if part of the heart problem of male in captivity is stress related.

I don't agree with any of these solutions but l do wonder what is in the long term best interest of the gorilla??

1. I believe most males in bachelor situations only tolerate this arrangement, which is not natural for males in the wild , rather than being fully adapted to it. Its rather like keeping solitary Orangutans in groups in zoos- not natural for them but it works (usually).

2. Stress I am sure plays a big role. You only have to see a large male Gorilla reacting negatively to the public e.g. hitting the glass or throwing stuff and being upset, and then compute how many times a day does that happen, nearly every day of the year, year after year, to see how much stress must be involved.

3. Captive Gorilla population control- IMO a satisfactory solution just isn't there at present.;

 

[Pertinax]

Maybe surplus/over-represented animals in captivity can be sent to Africa to either be released into the wild or be used in breeding programs in their native countries

Howletts have done it with handraised animals(both sexes) and now are in process with a whole breeding group. But its a very time consuming and complicated affair and one problem with gorillas born in Zoos is they have no fear of people- that can have negative aspects, for males in particular, if they are then used in reintroduction schemes. If groups of surplus males were reintroduced and then released together its likely they would soon split up and start making a nuisance of themselves if there was any human habitation within their range. Or at the very least, they could create a local population with an imbalance of single males anyway.

 

[Yassa]

I am totally against bringing surplus males back to Africa.

First, as Pertinax has pointed out, it`s time consuming and very expensive. If you want to do it right, you need not just the infrastructure to prepare them for a life in the wild, but also a longterm monitoring program. That`s not a "cheap and easy" solution, but rather the opposite.

Second, introducing males into a local population will lead to a surplus of males there, and that will lead to increased fights between silverbacks with a family and the lone males, which will lead to the death of males and infants alike. More males are not needed in the wild. The "surplus problem" in the wild is solved not just by many males living solitary, but als by the high death rates of lone males. Their life is much more dangerous then that of a female who has a stable home range, no fights to fight and the protection of a whole family. If a population has a shortage of males, the mortality of the blackbacks and silverbacks will go down and the problem is solved. Young males from zoos can`t do a thing to fill the void that a shortage of silverbacks (if such should exist) leave in a wild population.
Releasing surplus males from western zoos to the wild will simply mean that a LOT of them will just die there (after a lot of stress). I can`t see that that is preferable to euthanasia or castration.

Wildlife centers/ sanctuaries in Africa aren`t the solution, either. These already have their own "surplus male" problem! Limbe for example has many young males and as far as I know, no solution yet how to deal with them once they reach maturity. If I remember right they don`t even want to breed from their gorillas (and chimps) because of a lack of space.

I strongly feel that zoos need to solve the surplus male problem on their own, and because there is no ideal solution, I guess a mix of birth control for the most overrepresented lines, castration and keeping family groups small with no more then 2 adult females is the way to go. I think it`s also worth to find out if male groups work better when the males are related - for example a silverback and serveral sons, or brothers. There are a few of such groups in Europe, but I am not sure if the males are already old enough to evaluate if these groups are more stable and peaceful.

 

[Willard]

surplus males (reply to Pertinax and Yassa)

Of the alternatives to castration an insider I'm in touch with has suggested, re-introduction to the wild was the one I have the biggest problem with. Apart from being expensive, it would indeed lead to a surplus of males there - unless you "throw" them into a huge area with a population of hundreds of gorillas, which is just not viable. Not even Aspinall has done that.

But I don't agree in so far that "back to the wild" won't be preferable to euthanasia. Anything is. If we start killing gorillas in the name of conserving them it's nothing short of moral bankruptcy for the zoo world and the EEP. If they start doing that, I'd go anti-zoo immediately. Gorillas are not cattle or poultry we can deal with at our convenience, are they?

I agree that zoos need to solve the surplus male problem on their own. But castration is just to *some* degree less cruel than euthanasia. You actually seem to be the first to suggest keeping family groups small with no more than 2 adult females, and indeed - won't that take a lot of pressure out of the issue? Your other suggestion is interesting as well - to find out if male groups work better when the males are related. Personally I think they would but I don't have evidence. At least not for brothers who are *all* silverbacks. I'm curious to see how the bachelor group in Schmiding develops over the next years. They have three brothers (two full, one half) and a fourth unrelated male. But only one of them has fully matured yet. - On the other hand, Warsaw has two unrelated silverbacks who get along perfectly well, including frequently playing with each other.

Yet another option rarely discussed: Two adult males in one family group. Which is currently the case in Jacksonville, Florida and in Pittsburgh, Ohio. And was back in the early 1990's at Howletts (Djala and Kouillou). If the EEP is up for experimenting, why not on multi-silverback groups instead of castrations? I'm afraid the answer is equally evident and sad: money.

 

[Pertinax]

I'm curious to see how the bachelor group in Schmiding develops over the next years. They have three brothers (two full, one half) and a fourth unrelated male.

If the EEP is up for experimenting, why not on multi-silverback groups instead of castrations? I'm afraid the answer is equally evident and sad: money.

Longleat have three brothers in their male group also- silverback Kesho from ZSL and his two younger brothers from Dublin. They evidently remembered each other and got along fine on reintroduction after two years of the younger ones' seperation from Kesho. But the fourth male 'Boulas' from Twycross, seems not to have been integrated with them so far. Its possible he won't ever.

The two oldest groups of males in Europe are - I believe-at Loro Parc and the original Port Lympne group. The former consists of all-unrelated silverbacks but I don't know what their status is now as far as how many of them are still together. PL's oldest group were together from a young age- they consisted of brothers and halfbrothers mostly but this group of six has fragmented through fighting and a death (not due to fighting) leaving only three together and two(?) singletons.

Silverbacks in groups together. It has been done (e.g. at Howletts & Basel in the past) particularly with related combinations e.g. father/son or perhaps brothers. The father/son relationship can often be a remarkably tolerant one even into adulthood, if so allowed, though I fear it is a bit of a lottery whether it will last longerterm or whether, as with some bachelor groups one male will eventually try and oust another.. But I'd certainly like to see more grown-up sons being allowed the chance to go on living in their natal groups with their parents/fathers for as long as is practical, instead of being taken away needlessly early and put in male groups. The problem being their presence may then impede any future planned breeding, being related to females in the group.

 

[Taisha]

Basel assumes, fox tapeworm could have been brought in with the food. That doesn't exclude of course the possibility that mice were involved.

I don't remember the source, but apparently orang utans are not really the loners they were supposed to be, it is more a question of food availability in the wild - and when it is plentiful they socialize more. Hence lesser problems in the zoo.

As the Berlin silverback died at the age of 25 of a heartattack too, and I am sure I saw him panting at a much younger age, does anybody know if male gorillas in European zoos are checked for heart conditions on a regular base?
I also wondered how it could be possible to trigger off comparative research on bachelor groups.
Maybe there is also a need for more refined enrichment?

 

[Pertinax]

, it is more a question of food availability in the wild - and when it is plentiful they socialize more. Hence lesser problems in the zoo.

As the Berlin silverback died at the age of 25 of a heartattack too, and I am sure I saw him panting at a much younger age, does anybody know if male gorillas in European zoos are checked for heart conditions on a regular base?

I think with Orangutans, socialisation of non-breeders in zoos works fine mainly, but is less successful when breeding starts, as mothers often have to be seperated from each other, or males from new mothers and babies (particularly Borneans) etc. Frequently a breeding female will become increasingly intolerant of previous companions, indicating she wants her own larger(feeding?) territory for herself and her child.

Berlin male 'Derrik' was certainly a heart victim. But I have seen various other males panting after vigourous display or excitement. However overall in Zoos, males are far less fit being less active- they don't travel long distances for example, and probably far more often stressed than their wild counterparts- IMO a sure recipe for heart problems.

I don't know if routine heart monitoring nowadays takes place with any males in European zoos, or only during medicals.

 

[Willard]

Longleat / Loro Park

Longleat have three brothers in their male group also- silverback Kesho from ZSL and his two younger brothers from Dublin. They evidently remembered each other and got along fine on reintroduction after two years of the younger ones' seperation from Kesho.

The two oldest groups of males in Europe are - I believe-at Loro Parc and the original Port Lympne group. The former consists of all-unrelated silverbacks but I don't know what their status is now as far as how many of them are still together.

Longleat: It was a joy to watch the video of Kesho and his brothers being re-united! But again, as in Schmiding, I wonder what will happen when Alf and Evindi become silverbacks themselves. Time will tell.

Loro Park: Four of the five silverbacks live together. Here is a report from a recent visitor:

"Currently there are five gorillas living at the Park:
Schorsch is with his 41 years the eldest of them. Because he is almost blind he can't be kept together with the others and stays "behind the scenes", in an enclosure where he cannot be seen by the public.
Alladin is with his 15 years the youngest, tallest and heaviest (195kg) gorilla in the main enclosure. Since this summer - after winning a fight with Noel - he is on top of the group's hierarchy. He likes to stay in places where he cannot seen by the public.
Noel is the eldest and, as many people say, also the best looking gorilla of the group. Most of the time he sits close to the left window. If Alladin approaches he often stands up, grabs a bundle of branches and beats the ground with them while moving away some meters.
Pole Pole can be seen mostly close to the right window. He is said to be the balancing element of the group who tries to stop fights. Unfortunately he has many problems with either his hips or knees and therefore problems with walking. This has been examnined but I couldn't find out the result of the examination.
Rafiki is the younger brother of Pole Pole. You can hardly spot him because he spends most time in the right corner of the enclosure on an elevated area close to the waterfall."

 

[Willard]

Silverbacks in groups together

Silverbacks in groups together. It has been done (e.g. at Howletts & Basel in the past) particularly with related combinations e.g. father/son or perhaps brothers. The father/son relationship can often be a remarkably tolerant one even into adulthood, if so allowed, [...] I'd certainly like to see more grown-up sons being allowed the chance to go on living in their natal groups with their parents/fathers for as long as is practical, instead of being taken away needlessly early and put in male groups.

I was not aware of Basel. Could you please elaborate?

Father/son combinations: I thought zoos wait as long as possible before they move a son to another zoo. (For instance, a keeper from Munich told me they won't move Sadiki until the conflicts with his father Roututu increase intolerably. Besides, they want to wait as long as possible so they can move Sadiki together with his younger brother Kajolu, in order to keep the two brothers together - probably when moving them to Schmiding Zoo.) Do you want to say the EEP recommends transfers at a certain age, regardless of the respective father/son relationship?

My hope for Akili's second generation sons in Amsterdam, Bembosi, Shambe (both castrated in last December) and Douli (not yet, but on the list) was to form a bachelor group of brothers, much like Kesho's in Longleat, but apparently that's not going to happen. A shame, as there's a wealth of information on all-male groups but little to none on the effects of castration on gorillas. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, why can America do without castrations, and Europe doesn't?

(If anyone is interested, I can share a scientific study (2013) by Tara S. Stoinski from Zoo Atlanta about all-male groups.)

 

[zooman]

That would be great

 

[OrangePerson]

Wildlife centers/ sanctuaries in Africa aren`t the solution, either. These already have their own "surplus male" problem! Limbe for example has many young males and as far as I know, no solution yet how to deal with them once they reach maturity. If I remember right they don`t even want to breed from their gorillas (and chimps) because of a lack of space.

It's the policy of PASA (Pan African Sanctuary Alliance) not to breed except with the very few species where there is a release programme.

Giving a talk at Chester head of one of the sanctuaries said in the early days they thought they'd release the animals (chimps in that case) back to the wild but they have realised it's a fight to keep the ones that are out there from losing more habitat and they'll never be able to find anywhere to release the captive ones.

As Yassa says they have their own 'surplus males with dubious manners' problems developing and why would they want apes from the zoo population even if they were breeding, the genetic diversity of their apes must be far superior.

As wonderful as it is to see gorillas in zoos I have doubts about whether the price they pay is too high for a significant proportion of them.

 

[Pertinax]

Longleat: It was a joy to watch the video of Kesho and his brothers being re-united! But again, as in Schmiding, I wonder what will happen when Alf and Evindi become silverbacks themselves. Time will tell.

Loro Park: Four of the five silverbacks live together. Here is a report from a recent visitor:

I wasn't at all surprised that it was so harmonious- they have such good memories, while Kesho was a very playful male while at ZSL- although full-sized he still behaved like a youngster in some respects. I imagine Longleat will be able to keep these three together for at least, say, the next five- ten years, after that, who knows.

From the descriptions of the Loro Parc males it sounds as if now they are all adults, they mostly isolate themselves as much as possible, using different places in the enclosure. Interesting that 'Noel' is regardedas the best-looking- he is another son of the beautiul male 'Migger' from Basel.