ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnade Zoo 2014 #1

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I think fellowship of ZSL is actually one of the great zoo bargains - for that sum you get entry to the two zoos for yourself and one other, car entry to Whipsnade, parking at London Zoo, access to the library, and a discount in the zoo restaurants (meaning that the food is just very expensive, rather than exceptionally expensive).

Absolutely - two fair points. The cost, not just of building but also of running extra exhibits cannot be overlooked. And it would be a brave director of a mainstream zoo who did not have meerkats. That said, banded mongooses (or servals) (or both) would fit much better with the Serengeti theme - which is rendered a nonsense by the inclusion of meerkats.

Yes - but I don't think London (or any zoo) will ever be 'finished'. There are an almost infinite number of projects to complete, so the time when the focus can be wholly on Whipsnade will probably never come. As always, balance is needed!

No need to apologise! As always, passionately-held and well-argued opinions are what this site is all about. And Ian's views on the ZSL management are very passionately-held and very well-argued!

I am already a member with my family, but the extra cost would be to much for me as I am unable to work at the moment. being a member is awesome though!

true they may be from different parts of Africa, but its better to have something else there then nothing at all. I believe they are all male, so who knows the future may have something else there!

good point as well, I would argue that the lion area is the last area that needs a massive over hall. true the south bank could do with work, but the lions will be a massive, exciting project that would take a lot of money. I guess/assume that when that is done, it will be able to spread things around and achieve that balance you speak of.

yeah true, I guess I am especially passionate about whipsnade as I have lived about a 20 min drive from it all my life and honesty feel (with no bias) that it is one of the best zoo's. but yeah constructive debate is always interesting!

 

[sooty mangabey]

I am already a member with my family, but the extra cost would be to much for me as I am unable to work at the moment. being a member is awesome though!

If you've been a member for several years (three, I think, but it may be more) you are entitled to apply for fellowship, and this would be instead of, not in addition to, membership.

 

[pipaluk]

Im not claiming that people in power have 100% perfecr wisdom, but I do believe they have more knowledge on certain aspects then the general public. the idea that the ZSL has no clue is one that I dispute (not saying you said that, just what I feel). I also feel londons new tiger enclosure is one of the best I have seen. also £50 plus is way to expensive for me!

I don't know how to quote two different posts at once, but sooty mangabey you make great points, but perhaps the zoo feels as much as it woud like to, it does not have the money to do other smaller side enclosures. I also assume (perhaps wrongly) that the general public of the Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire area would much prefer to see something like meerkats (down to the mildly irritating adverts) then a serval which to them may look just like there cat at home.

I remember in the late 90's (I think) that in a couple of years they opened/started new lemur, elephant, hippo, rhino and tamarin enclosures and at the same time bear mountain was opened in London. My feeling is, and I trust the ZSL 100% in this, that once the money is spent on updating London (with the awesome sounding lion enclosure) then they can look to new things at Whipsnade. In my opinion its best to make what you have the best before something new is added.

I'm afraid i don't think London's multi-million lion development sounds awesome, as i've said elsewhere. The idea of money being wasted on gimmicks like a mock temple for langurs & ANOTHER area for farm animals is irritating. A few small cat enclosures similar to Marwell'sServal enclosure built a few year's ago could probably be added at both sites for less than £20k apiece. Whipsnade has no poor enclosures, (hippos aside possibly) and really has the potential to be a great collection instead of a good one! As i said earlier a dozen species could be added for a fraction of the cost of the new lion development at London

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

If you've been a member for several years (three, I think, but it may be more) you are entitled to apply for fellowship, and this would be instead of, not in addition to, membership.

that I didn't know, we have been members for over 20 years I would say!

well I guess we will have to wait and see how the lion enclosure looks and then discuss. people may be pleasantly surprised or disappointed. we don't know till its finished!

Personally the hippos for me is fine, its a far cry from the old house that was dingy, small and had a weird glass wall type thing that you could not see through so I had to be lifted up! also no paddocks and hardly saw them on what little land they had. what they have now, and have had for a good few years is in my opinion, fine.

 

[Tim May]

Do you know how long they had each of the three species?

I’m sorry but I don’t know for certain exactly how long the three hyaena species were at Whipsnade.

The ZSL Annual Reports show that Whispnade acquired two brown hyaenas in 1960 and two striped hyaenas in 1961. And the Whipsnade guides for 1961 and 1962 list these two species of hyaena.

As mentioned previously, the Whipsnade guide for 1965 lists brown, striped and spotted hyaenas.

However, an undated Whipsnade guide, but definitely circa 1969, doesn’t mention hyaenas at all so it would appear that they’d left the collection by then. (This would seem to tally with the 1969 ZSL Annual Report that lists hunting dogs as arriving at Whipsnade that year.)

 

[Pertinax]

This would seem to tally with the 1969 ZSL Annual Report that lists hunting dogs as arriving at Whipsnade that year.)

I saw Hunting dogs at Whipsnade during childhood visits in the 1950's. I hadn't realised they were discontinuous after that and that Hyaenas replaced them for a period of time.

Around 1970 Marwell received a pair of Hunting Dogs from Whipsnade, I had presumed they were from the original stock- but evidently not(unless they went from Whipsnade to London in the interim.)

 

[Chlidonias]

Absolutely - two fair points. The cost, not just of building but also of running extra exhibits cannot be overlooked. And it would be a brave director of a mainstream zoo who did not have meerkats. That said, banded mongooses (or servals) (or both) would fit much better with the Serengeti theme - which is rendered a nonsense by the inclusion of meerkats.

one does have to wonder whether the general public would even notice that banded mongooses weren't meerkats. I mean, half of them call lions tigers anyway.

 

[Tim May]

I saw Hunting dogs at Whipsnade during childhood visits in the 1950's. I hadn't realised they were discontinuous after that and that Hyaenas replaced them for a period of time.

Around 1970 Marwell received a pair of Hunting Dogs from Whipsnade, I had presumed they were from the original stock- but evidently not(unless they went from Whipsnade to London in the interim.)

Thanks; this is very interesting. Were the hunting dogs that you saw at Whipsnade in the 1950s housed in the same enclosure that they were kept in during the 1970s and 1980s ?

I am not completely sure of all the details here; as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I didn’t see the three species of hyaena at Whipsnade myself so I based my last post on what I’ve gleaned from the old guidebooks and the annual reports. (As I commented in another recent thread, I rarely went to Whipsnade until the 1970s – although I have been a very frequent visitor ever since.)

The Whipsnade guides for 1961, 1962 and 1965 show hyaenas in what I always think of as the hunting dogs enclosure. The guides in those days were comprehensive so, since hunting dogs were not listed, it seemed a reasonable assumption that there were no hunting dogs there in this period but, to repeat, I am not sure.

 

[Pertinax]

Thanks; this is very interesting. Were the hunting dogs that you saw at Whipsnade in the 1950s housed in the same enclosure that they were kept in during the 1970s and 1980s ?

I didn't see them there in the 1970-80's period.( so I've never seen Hunting dogs at Whipsnade since I was a child) In the fifties they were kept in the enclosure I described which was on the right inside the entrance of the now Asian Plains area and over near a hedge. I had presumed the enclosure you were referring to that housed Hyaenas was this same enclosure but maybe not.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I didn't see them there in the 1970-80's period.( so I've never seen Hunting dogs at Whipsnade since I was a child) In the fifties they were kept in the enclosure I described which was on the right inside the entrance of the now Asian Plains area and over near a hedge. I had presumed the enclosure you were referring to that housed Hyaenas was this same enclosure but maybe not.

I think so; an early 1950s map that I've seen shows Hunting Dogs in this location. Judging by the amount of rust on the fencing before it was mercifully taken down, this was the same enclosure. It ended its life housing a pair of White-naped(?) Cranes.

Incidentally, I think this does show that the inability to realise Whipsnade's potential has been there for decades. There was no real reason in the 1950s/60s why at least one Hyaena species and Hunting Dogs couldn't have ben held more than adequately, only lack of interest in doing so..

 

[Tim May]

I didn't see them there in the 1970-80's period.( so I've never seen Hunting dogs at Whipsnade since I was a child) In the fifties they were kept in the enclosure I described which was on the right inside the entrance of the now Asian Plains area and over near a hedge. I had presumed the enclosure you were referring to that housed Hyaenas was this same enclosure but maybe not.

Indeed, the enclosure that I was referring to was the one just inside the entrance to the Asian drive through area.

This is the one where I saw hunting dogs many times in the 1970s / 1980s and that housed hyaenas in the 1960s. (However I didn't realise that hunting dogs were also kept in the same exhibit during the 1950s too.)

 

[Panthera1981]

I think so; an early 1950s map that I've seen shows Hunting Dogs in this location. Judging by the amount of rust on the fencing before it was mercifully taken down, this was the same enclosure. It ended its life housing a pair of White-naped(?) Cranes.

Incidentally, I think this does show that the inability to realise Whipsnade's potential has been there for decades. There was no real reason in the 1950s/60s why at least one Hyaena species and Hunting Dogs couldn't have ben held more than adequately, only lack of interest in doing so..

Completely agree, a statement which could also apply to the musk-ox, congo buffalo, black rhino, polar bear, king penguin etc etc.

Out of interest, having just watched a very interesting programme about them, have Whipsnade ever kept Honey badger? I know of only Howletts, but I think theyd be a very interesting addition to the Africa section-perhaps in place of the RR hogs?

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I disagree with the fact that you believe there is no interest, what I believe is that there must be plenty of reasons behind the actions the ZSL take that we don't hear about.

The congo buffalo paddock was hardly the best In the zoo, the king penguins left (I believe down to a virus or medical issue) and keeping polar bears I doubt will happen any time soon down to the vast amount of money that you need to keep them.

I really am 100% confident it is not because of a lack of interest from the ZSL but part of a long term plan, which will have everything fully planned out on both the animal side (both with current species/over sea work/future species) and the financial side.

I honestly believe that we need/must trust the ZSL.

 

[IanRRobinson]

I disagree with the fact that you believe there is no interest, what I believe is that there must be plenty of reasons behind the actions the ZSL take that we don't hear about.

The congo buffalo paddock was hardly the best In the zoo, the king penguins left (I believe down to a virus or medical issue) and keeping polar bears I doubt will happen any time soon down to the vast amount of money that you need to keep them.

I really am 100% confident it is not because of a lack of interest from the ZSL but part of a long term plan, which will have everything fully planned out on both the animal side (both with current species/over sea work/future species) and the financial side.

I honestly believe that we need/must trust the ZSL.

ajmc, your faith is touching. Those of us who can remember ZSL council voting to close London Zoo two years running had ours trashed, and prefer a more sceptical approach.

 

[Panthera1981]

ajmc, your faith is touching. Those of us who can remember ZSL council voting to close London Zoo two years running had ours trashed, and prefer a more sceptical approach.

God forbid we should ever face this situation again, BUT complacency is a dangerous thing!

For those interested I suggest watching Molly Dineen's The Ark: eye-opening, scary and heartbreaking.

 

[Panthera1981]

Briefly returning to Gelada/Escarpment proposal, theoretically it would look wonderful having a large group chattering away overlooking the Downs! However, I think the SSI overrules any future construction upon the Escarpment, regardless of its boundaries.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the zoo restricted upon how high it can construct its buildings? Hence why you see "tall" buildings like the Cloisters and sealions at the lower end of the zoo. I'm sure I've read it in documentation at the ZSL library.

 

[IanRRobinson]

It would be interesting to know how much might be attempted within the SSSI. H'mm. Something hardy, that grazed and maybe opened up areas of bare chalk could be quite interesting for some invertebrates. Musk-oxen, perchance?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

It would be interesting to know how much might be attempted within the SSSI. H'mm. Something hardy, that grazed and maybe opened up areas of bare chalk could be quite interesting for some invertebrates. Musk-oxen, perchance?

To me, it would seem a perfect habitat for a Re-Wilding site, a large area for European larger fauna (Przewalski horse, onager, kiang, red deer (say maral as threatened), sheep (blue …), markhor et cetera.

 

[Pertinax]

Briefly returning to Gelada/Escarpment proposal, theoretically it would look wonderful having a large group chattering away overlooking the Downs!

And with their long hair blowing in the freezing wind.... Actually, although Geladas are a montane species, I don't know how well they would cope with really bad weather- though Edinburgh's are probably in a similar location. Perhaps at Whipsnade it would not be the best part of the park for them but they would still be one of the best suited primate species for them.

I think any development on the Downs escarpment if it was to be allowed, should probably be for arctic/cold temperate climate species only.

 

[gentle lemur]

Briefly returning to Gelada/Escarpment proposal, theoretically it would look wonderful having a large group chattering away overlooking the Downs! However, I think the SSI overrules any future construction upon the Escarpment, regardless of its boundaries.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the zoo restricted upon how high it can construct its buildings? Hence why you see "tall" buildings like the Cloisters and sealions at the lower end of the zoo. I'm sure I've read it in documentation at the ZSL library.

I expect there could well be restrictions on building on the ridge of the Downs, but I doubt if fencing would be disqualified. The SSSI boundaries cannot be disregarded, otherwise it would not have been worth delineating them in the first place.
The difference between the slopes at Whipsnade and Edinburgh is that the first faces roughly north and the second faces south, so our hypothetical Whipsnade gelada exhibit would need a more sheltered grassy area near the road and a heated house, so perhaps it would be better on a different site.
Grazing of part of the SSSI for part of the year might be contemplated, particularly if native species were involved, but I expect it would have to be at a very low stocking density.

Alan