Snowleopard's 2014 Road Trip

One disadvantage that the Shedd and the Georgia Aquarium have is that their cetacean programs are likely going to become outdated rather quickly, and arguably already are. The mainstream zoo-going public seems to be turning against circus-like cetacean presentations.

The oversold huge auditorium that was there to see Georgia's dolphin show yesterday would argue differently.

I sure hope you're wrong about outdated. I personally believe that dolphins will still be in zoos, aquariums, and ocean parks for 50 more years, if not longer. While I know that some folks have been affected by goofy propaganda movies like "Blackfish", very few in the general public have been affected -- thankfully.
 
The oversold huge auditorium that was there to see Georgia's dolphin show yesterday would argue differently.

I sure hope you're wrong about outdated. I personally believe that dolphins will still be in zoos, aquariums, and ocean parks for 50 more years, if not longer. While I know that some folks have been affected by goofy propaganda movies like "Blackfish", very few in the general public have been affected -- thankfully.

Sea World is already planning for an orca-less future if you track the future planning of their attractions like "Antarctica", the sea turtle attraction, and the development of their water parks.

"Blackfish" may be a goofy propaganda movie, but it is rooted in genuine, scientific concern about how to provide for the welfare of cetaceans in captivity.

The future of cetaceans in accredited institutions will be interesting to watch. For a harbinger of what is likely to happen I would watch what the Vancouver Aquarium decides to do with their cetacean program. If they manage to build a conservation-based beluga and dolphin exhibit that meets with the approval of their constituency then maybe that is a model for other institutions. If they and the National Aquarium decide to end their cetacean programs, then that seems like it could be the real beginning of the end for accredited cetacean programs except for possibly rescue programs like the rescued harbor porpoise at Vancouver and the dolphin at the Mote Aquarium.
 
You're right that there are no ocean sunfish or hammerhead sharks at Georgia, which are about the only aquatic species they could add, as it is about the most complete aquarium I've ever seen. I guess manatees would be great too.

Given that there are more than 200.000 marine species ( and not including freshwater species), I guess there are a lot of species to be potentially added...
WoRMS - World Register of Marine Species

And I would like to second DavidBrown's question: what story?
 
Sea World is already planning for an orca-less future if you track the future planning of their attractions like "Antarctica", the sea turtle attraction, and the development of their water parks.

Hardly planning for an orca-less future. They are merely creating more routes for profit generation (something Seaworld is very good at), as well as keeping new things coming at the parks.

"Shamu" is so deeply engrained into Seaworld's being they will not drop the orcas without a very major fight.
 
Sea World is already planning for an orca-less future if you track the future planning of their attractions like "Antarctica", the sea turtle attraction, and the development of their water parks.

"Blackfish" may be a goofy propaganda movie, but it is rooted in genuine, scientific concern about how to provide for the welfare of cetaceans in captivity.

The future of cetaceans in accredited institutions will be interesting to watch. For a harbinger of what is likely to happen I would watch what the Vancouver Aquarium decides to do with their cetacean program. If they manage to build a conservation-based beluga and dolphin exhibit that meets with the approval of their constituency then maybe that is a model for other institutions. If they and the National Aquarium decide to end their cetacean programs, then that seems like it could be the real beginning of the end for accredited cetacean programs except for possibly rescue programs like the rescued harbor porpoise at Vancouver and the dolphin at the Mote Aquarium.

It's pretty hard to be "goofy propaganda" and "rooted in genuine scientific concern" at the same time!

Not sure if Vancouver is a good model to watch. Our friend SnowLeopard is from that area, so he's kept me up to date on what that Aquarium is doing, and it sounds like it may be another similar situation to Toronto where the stupid politicians end up making the decisions, not the people.

My main message is let's be optimists, not pessimists. Let's hope that our children and grandchildren (and generations after) can still go to see dolphins, killer whales, elephants, polar bears, and other amazing creatures at a nearby zoo or aquarium.

By the way, I'm literally typing this from inside the Georgia Aquarium (they have free wifi), and I just watched their dolphin show again. This time I looked around at the little children enjoying the dolphins' antics in the show. I was near tears as I wished our 2-year-old could've been there with me.
 
Hardly planning for an orca-less future. They are merely creating more routes for profit generation (something Seaworld is very good at), as well as keeping new things coming at the parks.

"Shamu" is so deeply engrained into Seaworld's being they will not drop the orcas without a very major fight.

Good News!!! I love Sea World, and I love their orcas!
 
Hardly planning for an orca-less future. They are merely creating more routes for profit generation (something Seaworld is very good at), as well as keeping new things coming at the parks.

"Shamu" is so deeply engrained into Seaworld's being they will not drop the orcas without a very major fight.

Yes, they likely are planning for an orca-less future. They aren't stupid. The current orcas will be at the park for years, maybe decades, but they are fighting a losing battle.

Keeping a dysfunctional pod of orcas in a circus stadium is the popular perception of what is going on now at Sea World.

I've read the detailed critiques of Blackfish by Sea World and I've seen the movie. It's time to move beyond the movie and look at the future. Could Sea World create a mega-sized orca exhibit that allows them to live in some semblance of wild behavior like zoos are doing (arguably) for elephants? Because short of that it's hard to see how Sea World contains this situation in the long term.

Insulting people with contrary views, Allen, and dismissing their views as extremist on this issue is a mistake if you really do love Sea World. Blackfish opened up serious discussions by serious people about what the future of cetaceans in captivity is. It isn't PETA or some of the other activists that you and I would mutually find extremists who are pondering what the future of cetaceans in captivity will be. Professionals in the zoo community, mainstream zoo visitors, government scientists, and others are in this debate.
 
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Yes, they likely are planning for an orca-less future. They aren't stupid. The current orcas will be at the park for years, maybe decades, but they are fighting a losing battle.

More pessimism! I'm glad General Eisenhower or Winston Churchill didn't just say, "We're fighting a losing battle" before D-Day. They were optimists, like me.
 
More pessimism! I'm glad General Eisenhower or Winston Churchill didn't just say, "We're fighting a losing battle" before D-Day. They were optimists, like me.

I'm a optimist and your comments here are very rude and insulting.
 
I'm a optimist and your comments here are very rude and insulting.

I apologize if you think I'm insulting you -- I'm not. I'm just saying, let's be optimistic! Let's hope and pray that these animal rights wackos are not successful in taking away the zoos and aquariums that we love, that our great-granchildren will be able to see performing dolphins and killer whales, and that a zoo near them still has elephants for them to see. I just don't understand why we should concede that we are "losing" this battle. I just personally refuse to concede that. So again, I'm not insulting anyone here (except the zoo-hating wackos), just trying to ENCOURAGE you to be more optimistic about these things.
 
I apologize if you think I'm insulting you -- I'm not. I'm just saying, let's be optimistic! Let's hope and pray that these animal rights wackos are not successful in taking away the zoos and aquariums that we love, that our great-granchildren will be able to see performing dolphins and killer whales, and that a zoo near them still has elephants for them to see. I just don't understand why we should concede that we are "losing" this battle. I just personally refuse to concede that. So again, I'm not insulting anyone here (except the zoo-hating wackos), just trying to ENCOURAGE you to be more optimistic about these things.

Being optimistic is good, but you also have to look at the root of the problem. Nobody but Sea World really knows what their future plans are, but if you follow the podcasts and online interviews with Sea World designers and discussions of their future plans by theme park professionals (e.g., Micechat, Season Pass podcast), it is pretty clear that they are at least pondering what the long term future might look like without orcas, at least as they currently exist in a theme park environment.

I think that Vancouver is an important place to keep an eye on - if there is not mainstream support there for keeping cetaceans, that will say a lot about where "the people" are on the issue, not just activists and politicians. It may well be that people like how the aquarium is caring for their belugas and dolphins and decide that investing in expanding their facility is the right thing to do.

For the record, one of my favorite zoo experiences was watching the belugas at the Point Defiance Zoo. The keepers gave a great talk and training demonstration that was conservation based, informative, and entertaining. I was sad to see them go, although I know it was for the benefit of the animals.
 
More pessimism! ... They were optimists, like me.

But whilst the battle that, say, Churchill was facing was one where there was, incontrovertibly, a right and a wrong, that is not the case here - there has to be discussion and debate about what is 'correct'. Thus it is not a question of being pessimistic, but rather one of being open-minded to all possibilities.
 
But whilst the battle that, say, Churchill was facing was one where there was, incontrovertibly, a right and a wrong, that is not the case here - there has to be discussion and debate about what is 'correct'. Thus it is not a question of being pessimistic, but rather one of being open-minded to all possibilities.

What is "right" is that the zoos and aquariums that we love continue to display the animals we want to see -- dolphins, elephants, etc. -- and that activists and politicians stay out of these decisions.

David Brown, I don't deny that Sea World and other such entities might to doing some "worst case" planning for the future, just as any wise businesses will do. But that's quite different from saying it's a "losing battle" to conceive of our great-grandchildren seeing dolphins at the Georgia Aquarium or Indianapolis Zoo. Cheers!
 
Having visited Sea World San Antonio last week, I can say it was one of the worst zoo/aquarium experiences of my life. There was zero there that was educational. It was all show and now substance. It's the Michael Bay film of zoological experiences. Not a single word was mentioned to conservation, ecology, natural history, etc. On top of that, the price was so high that most people cannot even begin to afford the experience.
 
What is "right" is that the zoos and aquariums that we love continue to display the animals we want to see -- dolphins, elephants, etc. -- and that activists and politicians stay out of these decisions.

David Brown, I don't deny that Sea World and other such entities might to doing some "worst case" planning for the future, just as any wise businesses will do. But that's quite different from saying it's a "losing battle" to conceive of our great-grandchildren seeing dolphins at the Georgia Aquarium or Indianapolis Zoo. Cheers!

Maybe. The days of "performing" dolphin circus shows seem to empirically be on the wane though. If there are dolphins in captivity in 20 years it may be a lot more like what Vancouver, Disney at EPCOT, National Aquarium, etc. are doing with conservation based behavioral demonstrations instead of Sea World-Indianapolis-etc. circuses.

In past decades zoos were full of kids riding Galapagos tortoises, elephant circus-type shows, chimpanzee tea parties, etc. All of these species are still in zoos obviously, but in a conservation-natural history context.
 
Imagine my surprise when I noticed that the number of comments had jumped up considerably on this thread, all the time thinking that there would be a debate over my gushing praise for Saint Louis and how it is close to being my favourite zoo in the nation. But once again cetaceans became involved and I've had many discussions and debates about whales and dolphins in captivity and so I was not really surprised at all. I obviously adore zoos and have been obsessed with them since I was a toddler but I'm not a fan of either whales or dolphins in captivity. Any zoo that has had 26 dolphin deaths, stillbirths or miscarriages (Indianapolis) since 1988 is going to get bad press and it is not all from animal liberators but many individuals within the zoo industry are analyzing whether a life in a cement bowl is conducive to either animal abuse or ignorance. All whales are gone from traditional zoos and Indianapolis and Brookfield are the last two holdouts with dolphins and which one will blink first? Will they both still have dolphins in 10 or even 20 years? It seems unlikely as the industry is moving in the opposite direction.

Day 15 – Sunday, August 10th

While at the Endangered Wolf Center I saw two skinks that were perhaps 5 inches long and best of all was an enormous, 6-foot long Black Rat Snake that crossed the wide walking trail in front of the tour group.

Mini-Reviews:

Grant’s Farm – Overall a bit of a disappointment. This park has been around for 60 years and is smoking busy on a sunny Sunday in the middle of summer. Overall more than 600,000 visitors pile into the grounds, which is especially impressive once one considers the fact that the facility is only open full-time for 5 months of the year and then sporadically in the fall. There is a tram ride at the entrance that takes visitors on a 20-minute journey through a large hoofstock park, and species on show include Rocky Mountain Elk, Fallow Deer, White-Tailed Deer, Japanese Sika Deer, Ankole Cattle, American Bison and far-off separate enclosures for Ostrich and Aoudad. Once at the main facility there isn’t a lot to see and it is not difficult for an individual to stroll past all of the animal attractions in about half an hour. Mammals on show include: Grant’s Zebra, Dromedary, Llama, Alpaca, Red-Fronted Lemur, Red Kangaroo, Bennett’s Wallaby, Patagonian Cavy and a host of domestics. A glass-fronted outdoor Green Iguana enclosure is also found here, along with an African Spurred Tortoise yard. Various bird cages have the following species: Sun Conure, Indian Ring-Neck Parrot plus a walk-in Budgerigar aviary that is very tiny for the 100+ birds inside. There is also a scenic mini-lake with Lesser Flamingo, Chilean Flamingo, Mute Swan, White Stork and East African Crowned Crane. There are also several species of bird tethered in an old Capybara exhibit: Bald Eagle, Bateleur Eagle, Barn Owl, Great Horned Owl, Red-Tailed Hawk and a Peregrine Falcon/Gyrfalcon hybrid. However, the biggest surprise is that the park is home to 4 African Elephants and there are daily presentations in an amphitheater adjacent to one of the two elephant paddocks.

Endangered Wolf Center - The facility is closed to the public but it is possible to pre-book “PredaTours” in advance. A tour consists of an hour in a classroom setting, which is actually an old ammunitions bunker from the Korean War that has been turned into an air-conditioned lecture room and mini gift shop. Mounts of specimens, photos and pelts are all analyzed and discussed so that visitors are knowledgeable and prepared before the second hour begins and a walking tour of the park commences. Large chain-link yards of varying sizes house the species and photos are hard to obtain due to the two fence lines that obscure vision. However, the Red Wolf and Maned Wolf yards have a large wooden overlook that can accommodate a lot of guests and the structure allows for sweeping views of the sprawling, naturalistic enclosures. The center is recommended for only the hardcore zoo enthusiast and it is a valuable tour of a conservation-based facility. The entire animal list of 5 species consists of 2 Maned Wolves, 4 Red Wolves, 4 African Wild Dogs, 7 Swift Foxes and 13 Mexican Grey Wolves, although at least 8 Mexican Grey Wolves were just sent to a variety of other zoos as that is the species that the center has had great success with.
 
Sea Life Kansas City Aquarium - Eagle-eyed readers may have noticed that I skipped a mini-review for this facility and the reason why is that it was closed by the time I arrived. Arrrgghhh! I had written down that the hours were 10:00-8:00 and I pulled into Kansas City, Missouri, at 6:40 in the evening. After finding parking underground I reached the aquarium only to see a sign that had the Sunday hours as 10:00 - 6:00. It was frustrating to see that I had missed out on an AZA-accredited establishment and I banged on the door to no avail. Later that night at my motel I checked out the website and noticed that I was correct all along as the hours are indeed 10:00-8:00 on Sundays. However, the print beneath the hours says that last admission is at 6:00 and so I guess that technically the aquarium stays open until 8:00 but they lock their doors and refuse any more guests after 6:00. What a total joke, as it only takes 30 minutes to tour a Sea Life and it seems like a bizarre policy.

Oh well, life goes on. I had to cruise through Kansas City anyway and so the diversion only cost me half an hour of time. Also, there are no penguins or otters at the establishment and from the map that I picked up the facility seems identical to just about every other Sea Life out there. Those places are about $24 per adult for 30 minutes of looking at "Bay of Rays" and other shtick and while it was annoying to miss out in the end it was only a Sea Life and not something truly valuable.:)
 
Having visited Sea World San Antonio last week, I can say it was one of the worst zoo/aquarium experiences of my life. There was zero there that was educational. It was all show and now substance. It's the Michael Bay film of zoological experiences. Not a single word was mentioned to conservation, ecology, natural history, etc. On top of that, the price was so high that most people cannot even begin to afford the experience.

I felt the same way about Sea World San Diego, at least in relation to the shows - the rest was generally OK. If that's the best they can do to educate people about orcas they don't deserve to display them. I don't have anything against orcas/dolphins in captivity per se, and I hope they do persist in large aquariums, but Sea World need to lift their game dramatically to be able to justify keeping these creatures.
 
I felt the same way about Sea World San Diego, at least in relation to the shows - the rest was generally OK. If that's the best they can do to educate people about orcas they don't deserve to display them. I don't have anything against orcas/dolphins in captivity per se, and I hope they do persist in large aquariums, but Sea World need to lift their game dramatically to be able to justify keeping these creatures.

Sea World is the only outfit in the US with orcas, other than the Miami Seaquarium which is even worse than Sea World.
 
@SL, sorry for derailing your thread with captive cetacean chatter!

Couple of other comments:

74 turtle/tortoise species is definitely the largest number I have ever heard of, and I suspect the largest on display anywhere. It'd be great to see all that diversity together. How do they display them - terrariums in walls? Rather odd that it is a temporary exhibition, they must have obtained them from a great many sources. Singapore's Live Turtle & Tortoise Museum has a heap of species (~50), but I'm not sure of what other facilities would even come close to this level of diversity.

Also, I'd love to see a "Wall of Eels", it sounds slippery and slimy! :D

The trip sounds like it is going great, except for missing Sea Life. Keep the mini-reviews coming!
 
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