Do zoos have a place in modern society?

stubeanz said:
Whilst I can see what you mean, I think you can't start banning people because they have a different view to you. If they start arguments for the sake of it then ban them but I think monkeyarmy is honestly looking for a debate not a fight.

I would be interested to know what your social enterprise on exotic pets is monkeyarmy ? I know you mentioned it in another thread and it peaked my interest!
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It is or will be when officially launched focused on improving standards for primates kept as 'pets' in the uk, it is not seeking a ban but tight controls and licensing. It will also feature a rescue center for victims of the primate pet trade. Before anyone says anything the rescue center won't be open to the public and therefore won't be a zoo.
 
monkeyarmy said:
Where is your evidence that zoos are currently active in working with local communities to try and ensure species do have a future of returning to their habitat ?
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I suggest you do a little research on the Bronx Zoo and the Wildlife Conservation Society, namely their work with cleaning up the Bronx River and the surrounding area.

A little further research into them would make you realize they certainly go the full mile when it comes to worldwide conservation. In fact, I believe they're currently in the midst of successfully reintroducing the Kihansi Spray Toad (a species whom I think it's fair to say would be Extinct if not for Bronx as well as the other zoos they eventually sent animals out to).

And this leads me to my next point which TLD touched upon: you cannot simply name just two species zoos have reintroduced and then act as though those are the only two species. Just for species of the United States alone, I can think of zoos reintroducing California Condors, Red Wolves, Mexican Wolves, Brook Trout, American Bison, and the aforementioned Black-Footed Ferret just off the top of my head. My local zoo, Beardsley, which is quite small and certainly doesn't bring in the millions larger zoos do, has been apart of the reintroduction of Red Wolves, Brook Trout, Golden Lion Tamarin, and Andean Condors.

monkeyarmy said:
Most importantly I have as equal right to be here as anyone else if your ideals and opinions are that fragile they are threatened by some one having opposing views, well that's your problem not mine.
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Yes, you do have an equal privilege to be here, but that also means your arguments and posts can be criticized and, if necessary, torn apart by others if called for.

~Thylo:cool:
 
Actually I think this is a debate worth having and this is probably the right site to have it. I believe in zoos and generally I believe that they are here for the right reasons. In fact if we haven't had zoos in the first place to study and understand animals we wouldnt have the anti zoo brigade. So its a chicken and egg.
On the other hand zoos are not perfect and should be challenged.Perhaps we should ask the following questions and perhaps some questions we may not like the sound of.
1. Should we interfere in a declining wild population by bringing species into captivity or should we let them become extinct just like the dodo? Is this not just the natural order of things.
2.Should not part of what Zoos do is to breed a captive population of animals that can be eventually released back into the wild. And perhaps some of these releases should not necessarily be in their indigenous countries - and yes I know the potential problems that it could lead to.
3. Why are there flavours of the month in zoos - meerkats, lemurs etc
4. It is interesting the anti zoo brigade would still want Zoos to lead in saving species but by not having them in captivity.
5. I do not think that there is any real joined up thinking between zoos as to what to do with excess zoo animals - castration is not the answer in my opinion.
 
monkeyarmy said:
It is or will be when officially launched focused on improving standards for primates kept as 'pets' in the uk, it is not seeking a ban but tight controls and licensing. It will also feature a rescue center for victims of the primate pet trade. Before anyone says anything the rescue center won't be open to the public and therefore won't be a zoo.
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How will it survive financially ?
 
monkeyarmy said:
The title is possed as a question not an absolute, therefore I'm not arguing that zoos shouldn't or should exist more how they sit in modern society.
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The way that monkeyarmy wrote his first post definitely sounds like an anti-zoo argument, but since it's hard to tell exactly what people mean over the Web, it's possible that their intent was misunderstood. They may also have meant to pose it as an argument that other people have made, rather than one that monkeyarmy him/herself believes.

In my understanding of zoos' purpose in modern society, their goals revolve primarily around educating the public about conservation and encouraging them to act by establishing an emotional connection with wildlife. They are also involved in conservation work, but this is usually just their way of getting involved in hands-on conservation efforts for the animals they keep. Encouraging the public to get involved in conservation and protection of the environment is the purpose that modern zoos exist for today, and so they are most certainly relevant to society and beneficial for conservation in that sense.

Additionally, captive breeding programs in zoos have successfully reintroduced species back into the wild, but this is not the norm. The main purpose of zoos is not to breed animals to be reintroduced into the wild; it is to display wild animals in a setting that is easily visible and accessible, giving people a rare opportunity to visually and emotionally connect with wildlife. Reintroductions are only done if they are necessary and have a high chance of success.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
As I noted above, the very link you posted to "prove" that ZSL has no interest in reintroduction of taxa - but which in fact did the reverse - also contains copious discussion of the work with local communities in which ZSL is heavily involved.

And to raise the subject of the other major collection which you directly cited as having high profits, but do not believe puts these profits into conservation projects, this is the website for Act For Wildlife, the in-situ conservation wing of the North of England Zoological Society (Chester Zoo):

Wildlife Conservation Projects | Endangered Animals | Act for Wildlife
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The profit I quoted are after they had paid all their expenses i.e. conservation work, that is why it is called profit not just income. If your expenses are larger than your income you are loss making if income is greater you are profit making business 101. The point being zsl have at least 7 million a year going spare. Say they save 2 million of that for one of expenses etc that is 5 million they could be using to do more conservation work
 
garyjp said:
How will it survive financially ?
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The enterprise as a whole or just the rescue centre? The enterprise will survive by selling its services and other trading to raise funds as well as grants for social enterprises. The rescue centre will be funded by the enterprise, private benefactors and grants intended for such projects.

As for previous remarks about me going to zoos, I have been to many. Some good like zsl, the deep, howletts (who have recently released significant amounts of primates to the wild), some okish south lakes Rome bio parco, marwell and then atrocity that is or was Dubai zoo where big cats were kept in cages no bigger than a kennel at the rspca. I accept not all zoos are bad and not all sanctuaries are good.
 
monkeyarmy said:
Some good like zsl, the deep, howletts (who have recently released significant amounts of primates to the wild), some okish south lakes Rome bio parco, marwell and then atrocity that is or was Dubai zoo where big cats were kept in cages no bigger than a kennel at the rspca. I accept not all zoos are bad and not all sanctuaries are good.
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Entirely distinct from the discussion at hand, it does somewhat amuse me that someone with a largely negative outlook towards zoological collections believes South Lakes is "ok-ish", when this is one of the collections which rather a lot of members of this site are most critical of :p

If you have not already, have a read of some of the threads discussing SLWAP - at the very least it will hopefully prove to you that we don't believe all zoological collections are godlike and beyond reproach!
 
monkeyarmy said:
The profit I quoted are after they had paid all their expenses i.e. conservation work, that is why it is called profit not just income. If your expenses are larger than your income you are loss making if income is greater you are profit making business 101. The point being zsl have at least 7 million a year going spare. Say they save 2 million of that for one of expenses etc that is 5 million they could be using to do more conservation work
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Well they're a big enterprise that has a lot of expenses, will want to save money for the future, and probably have big things planned for the future and thus need money. Plus, keepers need to be paid and mouths need to be fed every single day of the year. I'd imagine zoos need big profits in order to survive in the long run and be able to further provide towards conservation. Business 101:p;)

~Thylo:cool:
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Well they're a big enterprise that has a lot of expenses, will want to save money for the future, and probably have big things planned for the future and thus need money. Plus, keepers need to be paid and mouths need to be fed every single day of the year. I'd imagine zoos need big profits in order to survive in the long run and be able to further provide towards conservation. Business 101:p;)

~Thylo:cool:
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Again the numbers quoted are after expenses such as maintenance, staff wages, the tea bags etc! The figures can be found on the charity commission website
 
Again the numbers quoted are after expenses such as maintenance, staff wages, the tea bags etc! The figures can be found on the charity commission website
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So, what are you saying?
 
monkeyarmy said:
The enterprise as a whole or just the rescue centre? The enterprise will survive by selling its services and other trading to raise funds as well as grants for social enterprises. The rescue centre will be funded by the enterprise, private benefactors and grants intended for such projects.

As for previous remarks about me going to zoos, I have been to many. Some good like zsl, the deep, howletts (who have recently released significant amounts of primates to the wild), some okish south lakes Rome bio parco, marwell and then atrocity that is or was Dubai zoo where big cats were kept in cages no bigger than a kennel at the rspca. I accept not all zoos are bad and not all sanctuaries are good.
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I dont understand what the enterprise is selling exactly ?And trading in what ?So when you mean grants you mean my hard earned taxes well it seems ridiculous to me that you wouldnt open to the public to raise more funds .
 
monkeyarmy said:
Again the numbers quoted are after expenses such as maintenance, staff wages, the tea bags etc! The figures can be found on the charity commission website
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O'dear missed the point complete. A business needs a cash reserve to survive lean periods. This is what they were pointing out.

Do you after you have paid all your bills throw the rest away? Or do you put some of it away for the rainy day?
 
taun said:
O'dear missed the point complete. A business needs a cash reserve to survive lean periods. This is what they were pointing out.

Do you after you have paid all your bills throw the rest away? Or do you put some of it away for the rainy day?
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7 million is a hell of a rainy day fund. I did say in a previous post say "say they put two million away for one of expenses, future developments etc that's still a 5 million profit". Even if they spent just one million of their profits on conservation that would have a massive impact.

I know you seem to have an agenda but could you please read all comments before replying and refrain from cherry picking part sentences/paragraphs to back your point; it's not big and it's not clever.
 
garyjp said:
I dont understand what the enterprise is selling exactly ?And trading in what ?So when you mean grants you mean my hard earned taxes well it seems ridiculous to me that you wouldnt open to the public to raise more funds .
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A. This is not a thread on how I will fund my business, I was asked about the business so answered what it was about.

B it would cost more to open to the public than it could raise. At least at first.

C. This government doesn't fund the things it has a responsibility to properly so I can't see them giving me free money. Grants are made by the big lottery fund, big issue foundation etc
 
Here lays the problem Monkey Army you want your cake and to eat it you are an idealist!You want to open a sanctuary that has no fee paying public but you are happy to take the same money via grants which is our money in the first place by paying tax. Your going to sell and trade nothing as far as I can see unless of course you are going to try and sell better animal husbandry to the self same people you critisce for keeping marmosets in bird cages - well thats not going to get off the ground. You don't like the fact some zoos make a profit and if they do they should just throw more of their money into conservation. As we have learnt over the years just throwing money at a problem does not work.Also surely you would want the captive zoological animals to have better enclosures for their enrichment.Of course I think all of us would agree in an ideal world we wouldn't have the need for zoos and if we follow that policy now be prepared to loose some wonderful animals from this planet as perhaps some should just be allowed to become extinct.
 
monkeyarmy said:
A. This is not a thread on how I will fund my business, I was asked about the business so answered what it was about.

B it would cost more to open to the public than it could raise. At least at first.

C. This government doesn't fund the things it has a responsibility to properly so I can't see them giving me free money. Grants are made by the big lottery fund, big issue foundation etc
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A TO be fair you started this about your business. If you want to open another primate sanctuary then good luck to you.

B. How ? And where are you going to get all your rich benefactors from ?
C. All these people who you are disagreeing with buy a lottery ticket or a copy of the big issue so it is their money which would be helping you. I really dont know how much free money you think you are going to get I would have thought your going to need £500,000 to start of with and with a plan to raise more .
 
garyjp said:
Here lays the problem Monkey Army you want your cake and to eat it you are an idealist!You want to open a sanctuary that has no fee paying public but you are happy to take the same money via grants which is our money in the first place by paying tax. Your going to sell and trade nothing as far as I can see unless of course you are going to try and sell better animal husbandry to the self same people you critisce for keeping marmosets in bird cages - well thats not going to get off the ground. You don't like the fact some zoos make a profit and if they do they should just throw more of their money into conservation. As we have learnt over the years just throwing money at a problem does not work.Also surely you would want the captive zoological animals to have better enclosures for their enrichment.Of course I think all of us would agree in an ideal world we wouldn't have the need for zoos and if we follow that policy now be prepared to loose some wonderful animals from this planet as perhaps some should just be allowed to become extinct.
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Who knew the lottery fund was funded by taxs, if I were you I'd let them know as they seem to think they aren't! You don't see what I will be trading/doing to raise funds because I haven't told you, that in no way means I'm going to sell products for the keeping of primates, you know what they say about assumptions..... I have obtained commercial finance for the business which would be near on impossible if I were reliant solely on grants.

I would hope that improving enclosures is a constant expense included in expediture. The problem is with the argument of well species will go extinct without zoos it is unsustainable, there is a limited number of animals of a species in captivity meaning eventually the breeding will either have to stop breeding, breed horribly inbred or hybrid animals or new animals taken from the wild. A longer term solution needs developing.
 
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