Do zoos have a place in modern society?

[Macaw16]

You have raised no points for me to discuss only pointed out I was wronf, which I accept. However, reintroducing corncrakes and mountain chicken frogs to Cambridge and Monserate is a very different prospect to returning Sumatran tigers back to the wild or lowland gorillas or any other of their endangered species that are not so straight forward. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

I accept zoos are doing more conservation than I thought but how do we measure it's effectiveness if no species are being returned to the wild?

You seem to only think about the big animals (the ABCs). Why do you think a Tiger is more important than a frog? Is it because they're more exciting (which they're not in my head)? And who said they aren't difficult to sort out? Just because an animal is small, doesn't mean its easy.

 

[Elephas Maximus]

Why do you think a Tiger is more important than a frog? Is it because they're more exciting (which they're not in my head)? And who said they aren't difficult to sort out? Just because an animal is small, doesn't mean its easy.

Frogs are even more important (for education) because they may be studied by children up close and personal, unlike tigers

 

[Ned]

. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

I accept zoos are doing more conservation than I thought but how do we measure it's effectiveness if no species are being returned to the wild?

It's hard to put a time scale on releasing animals such as gorillas into the wild, the threats they face have to be eliminated and the process of rewilding gorillas need to be learnt. It may be that rewilding happens over two or three generations of gorillas. We might be dead and gone by that point and it may be future generations who attempt these reintroduction. Ultimately some animal species won't be reintroduced because thier wild cousins might recover through other conservation efforts but right now we don't know which will rely on a backup zoo population.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

However, reintroducing corncrakes and mountain chicken frogs to Cambridge and Monserate is a very different prospect to returning Sumatran tigers back to the wild or lowland gorillas or any other of their endangered species that are not so straight forward. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

What makes you think that the only species being worked on, or which have been worked on in the past, are those which have *not* been affected by "multiple mostly man-made issues"?

Moreover, what makes you think that those taxa that have been reintroduced *are* straightforward? It can't be a case of assuming that small = straightforward and large = not so straightforward, as a number of the species which have benefited from reintroduction programmes are very large indeed.

To discuss only those taxa already mentioned within this thread:

Black-footed Ferret - decline and extinction in the wild was due in large part to extermination programmes aimed by man at their primary prey item, the prairie dog, along with conversion of prairie habitat to agricultural cropland.

Arabian Oryx - hunted to extinction in the wild by man.

Partula Snails - accidental introduction of African Land Snail into Tahiti by man led to an attempt at extermination through the deliberate introduction of Florida Rosy Wolfsnail, which preferentially targeted the native Partula snails - entirely wiping out many species and rendering others extinct in the wild.

Mountain Chicken - combination of chytrid fungus brought to the West Indies by man, extremely high levels of hunting by man and habitat loss due to volcanic eruption and expansion of human activity has brought this taxon to the brink of extinction.

Mauritus Kestrel - combination of habitat loss due to deforestation, invasive predatory species introduced by man, and DDT poisoning brought this taxon to a world population of 8 by the 1970's.

Pere David's Deer - original cause for decline unclear, probably habitat loss. Final individuals outside captivity killed and eaten in 1900.

Przewalski's Horse - brought to extinction in the wild through hunting and habitat loss.

Wisent - brought to the brink of extinction by habitat loss and heavy hunting by man.

Corncrake - although still commonplace in their stronghold of Asia, significant declines across Western Europe due to habitat loss relating to the industrial revolution and the decline of traditional agriculture.

Kihansi spray toad - brought to extinction in the wild due to habitat loss relating to the construction of a dam, with chytrid introduced by man posing a complicating factor.

Red Wolf - habitat loss and persecution by man brought this taxon to extinction in the wild.

American Bison - extreme habitat loss and hunting by man brought this taxon to the brink of extinction.

Californian Condor - extreme habitat loss, hunting and poisoning through use of DDT exterminated this taxon in the wild.

Black Robin - introduction of invasive predators brought this taxon to an effective wild population of a single pair.

I accept zoos are doing more conservation than I thought but how do we measure it's effectiveness if no species are being returned to the wild?

As we have already discussed, species are being returned to the wild - and as such the question you pose is irrelevant - or is this a case of "the only species that matter to me are the big-name flashy ones" perchance?

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

Well, that is a lot of nonsence in one thread!
So I'll just stick to the topic.

Yes, zoos do have a place in modern society.
Are they in our modern society? Yes, so they do have a place.
A simple answer, but true.

Why should I care about the fact tigers can't be reintroduced?
Tigers attract visitors, visitors spends money, partly that money is used for conservative or educational purposes.

Just one example, Sea Life Oberhausen has sharks.
Will they ever release those sharks back into the wild again? No, they won't.
But with the sharks to attract visitors, they spend some money to a local project of european pond turtles.

So here's my piece of nonsence!
Please stay a little on topic, this can be a quote interesting discussion.

 

[Macaw16]

You have raised no points for me to discuss only pointed out I was wronf, which I accept. However, reintroducing corncrakes and mountain chicken frogs to Cambridge and Monserate is a very different prospect to returning Sumatran tigers back to the wild or lowland gorillas or any other of their endangered species that are not so straight forward. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

I accept zoos are doing more conservation than I thought but how do we measure it's effectiveness if no species are being returned to the wild?

You seem to think as soon as an animal is born, we should dump it in the wild. When we need to build a large population. So if we release one to soon, it won't have a large impact, as we need plenty to provide a large population in captivity, so we will have more to release, as in the wild they could easily be killed and not reproduce, so won't have anymore, so won't help the species.

 

[Elephas Maximus]

In a distant and (if only) bright future, I imagine the debates about stopping the captive breeding of species that were critically endangered in the past but now have their numbers (as well as habitats) restored, and leaving more zoo space for de-extinct and genetically engineered species
Sadly, nobody of us would live enough to see those days.
P.S. Just noticed it's my 900th post.

 

[taun]

You have raised no points for me to discuss only pointed out I was wronf, which I accept. However, reintroducing corncrakes and mountain chicken frogs to Cambridge and Monserate is a very different prospect to returning Sumatran tigers back to the wild or lowland gorillas or any other of their endangered species that are not so straight forward. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

There was an experiment about releasing tigers that were hand raised seems all updates have stopped and cannot find anything beyond 2011.

When I watched the documentary it suggested it was successful in terms of them hunting for themselves.

Releasing Captive Tigers

Then interested if you think Orangs have been successful released back into the wild? Surprised your only concentrating on gorillas when all great apes have yet to be successfully reintroduced into the wild from a captive background.

 

[monkeyarmy]

You seem to think as soon as an animal is born, we should dump it in the wild. When we need to build a large population. So if we release one to soon, it won't have a large impact, as we need plenty to provide a large population in captivity, so we will have more to release, as in the wild they could easily be killed and not reproduce, so won't have anymore, so won't help the species.

Yep that's precisely what I mean, in fact we could go one further give the mothers a c section give the baby a wash over with with a wet wipe Chuck them on an a BA flight and wish them the best. Or you could read the first post on this thread where I cited sepilock and their 'jungle school'.

No I don't mean just the animals i care about, I have a keen interest in amphibians so have had good news, but maybe it's just me but I have never seen an advert on tv or in wildlife magazines or conservation websites asking for money to support conservation efforts of mountain chickens, it's always tigers/snow leopards/ the big flashy animals as you put it.

 

[Macaw16]

Yep that's precisely what I mean, in fact we could go one further give the mothers a c section give the baby a wash over with with a wet wipe Chuck them on an a BA flight and wish them the best. Or you could read the first post on this thread where I cited sepilock and their 'jungle school'.

No I don't mean just the animals i care about, I have a keen interest in amphibians so have had good news, but maybe it's just me but I have never seen an advert on tv or in wildlife magazines or conservation websites asking for money to support conservation efforts of mountain chickens, it's always tigers/snow leopards/ the big flashy animals as you put it.

That is because the general public isn't interested in a small brown frog. They use the popular animals to get people to donate, as they care more about tigers then brown frogs.

 

[monkeyarmy]

There was an experiment about releasing tigers that were hand raised seems all updates have stopped and cannot find anything beyond 2011.

When I watched the documentary it suggested it was successful in terms of them hunting for themselves.

Releasing Captive Tigers

Then interested if you think Orangs have been successful released back into the wild? Surprised your only concentrating on gorillas when all great apes have yet to be successfully reintroduced into the wild from a captive background.

Orangs have been released to a protected reserve by sepilock. Golden checked gibbons and slow Loris have been introduced onto an island by E.A.S.T

 

[monkeyarmy]

That is because the general public isn't interested in a small brown frog. They use the popular animals to get people to donate, as they care more about tigers then brown frogs.

If any other company did that it would be classed as false advertising

 

[Macaw16]

If any other company did that it would be classed as false advertising

Well some of the money will got to the advertised animals probably (unless you mean the adoption adverts? All the money will go to the mentioned animals)

 

[TeaLovingDave]

No I don't mean just the animals i care about, I have a keen interest in amphibians so have had good news, but maybe it's just me but I have never seen an advert on tv or in wildlife magazines or conservation websites asking for money to support conservation efforts of mountain chickens, it's always tigers/snow leopards/ the big flashy animals as you put it.

They are actually one of the major species which is mentioned rather a lot on conservation websites these days - and certainly they are one of the big priority species for zoological collections within the British Isles, with four collections very active in captive breeding and reintroduction (Chester, Bristol, Jersey, London).

 

[taun]

Orangs have been released to a protected reserve by sepilock. Golden checked gibbons and slow Loris have been introduced onto an island by E.A.S.T

Not the same as reintroducing captive animals, as most of these are rescue animals which have been illegal took from the wild. If your including them then there has been success with Western Lowland Gorillas, and in a few years sure we will hear the good news that Mountain Gorillas have also been returned to the wild.

If we are going down this route, then it may be hard pressed to find many animals that have not.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Next ethics, morality and research.

Waiting

~Thylo

 

[garyjp]

I think perhaps we should all step back and reflect a little here and I think if we are all honest with ourselves I think we have all learnt something.
Monkey Army I for one would like to know more about your proposed business. I was also interested in your marmoset comment .I do not think you will ever be a zoo enthusiast but onther hand I dont think you are a Zoo hater either.
Ive enjoyed reading the debate today and joining in perhaps we should all give ourselves the day off tomorrow.

 

[Coelacanth18]

I have a question for monkeyarmy about his OP, the beginning and end of which I have quoted here.

As requested in previous thread An argument against the place of zoos in modern society:


Conservation
More and more zoos are justifying their existence with their involvement in conservation work. Whilst this holds true for a few species ( orangutans, pygmy chameleons etc) in a few institutions it is largely at best a small token akin to a multinational company using recycled plastic bags and declaring themselves environmentally friendly. At its worse the zoo mantra of conservation is misleading. An example of this is breeding programs [...]

Therefore conservation efforts are lacking at best and at worse a Micky mouse attempt to justify holding animals captive for profit and entertainment [...]

Is the argument being made here that conservation efforts by zoos are ineffective and misleading, or that zoos do not have a place in modern society? Because the OP begins as "An argument against the place of zoos in modern society" and the first sentence says that "More and more zoos are justifying their existence with their involvement in conservation work", making it sound like this is your central argument. However, the rest of the post (and now the majority of the argument on this thread) relates to whether or not zoo conservation is effective, not whether zoos have a place in modern society.

If your central argument is that zoos have no place in modern society because their conservation efforts are ineffective/misleading, then I feel like you have made a false assumption. As I stated in an earlier post, educating the public about conservation and allowing visitors to establish an emotional connection with threatened wildlife is the primary purpose of most well-known zoological facilities (like those that are a part of the AZA and EAZA); direct conservation efforts and captive breeding programs go hand-in-hand with that, but that is not the main purpose that zoos serve in modern society. That purpose is served primarily by in situ breeding programs and conservation-specific NGOs like the WWF. Zoos help out with these efforts, but education is the main purpose of their existence.

With that being said, if your central argument is only that conservation efforts in zoos are ineffective/misleading... then my point may be irrelevant. In which case... carry on

But I just wanted to get that clarified, in case this thread has indeed spent nearly all of its existence being off-topic and irrelevant to the original argument.

 

[monkeyarmy]

I think perhaps we should all step back and reflect a little here and I think if we are all honest with ourselves I think we have all learnt something.
Monkey Army I for one would like to know more about your proposed business. I was also interested in your marmoset comment .I do not think you will ever be a zoo enthusiast but onther hand I dont think you are a Zoo hater either.
Ive enjoyed reading the debate today and joining in perhaps we should all give ourselves the day off tomorrow.

I don't hate zoos, going to the IOW zoo seeing the big cats exhibit and there being a mirror under the statement what's the tigers biggest threat and there just being a mirror got me interested in conservation and wildlife. Going to London zoo seeing primates made me fall in love and lead me to where I am now. So me hating zoos would be like a professional tennis player saying they hated their tennis lessons, it's disingenuous as without the lessons or the zoos, things would not be the way they are.

I am idealistic because frankly it depresses me to the core that my favorite animals may disappear from the wild completely and the only way any one will see them is in zoos where eventually die out or be massively inbred hybrid freaks. What's worse is there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

 

[dean]

I don't hate zoos, going to the IOW zoo seeing the big cats exhibit and there being a mirror under the statement what's the tigers biggest threat and there just being a mirror got me interested in conservation and wildlife. Going to London zoo seeing primates made me fall in love and lead me to where I am now. So me hating zoos would be like a professional tennis player saying they hated their tennis lessons, it's disingenuous as without the lessons or the zoos, things would not be the way they are.

I am idealistic because frankly it depresses me to the core that my favorite animals may disappear from the wild completely and the only way any one will see them is in zoos where eventually die out or be massively inbred hybrid freaks. What's worse is there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

I'm pleased to read your latest post MA but you could have saved a lot of hassle if you hadn't started your original post condemning zoos in a modern world, on a zoo fan site. As I'm sure you have realised most people who love zoos don't always like what they see, I personally rarely, if ever, look at some of the zoo's in third world country posted on zoo chat as I find some of the conditions rather distressing.

Re reading some of your posts, if there is a shortage of space for rescued primates why don't sanctuary's allow people with the ability or interest to look after the ones they have no room for? Rather like bachelor groups in zoo's are kept? They could still be under the care of the sanctuary and receive vet care and be inspected at will by the sanctuary etc as required. Thus freeing up room for the ill and abused animals to be taken in by the sanctuary for nursing back to health.

At the risk of starting another debate, I find your last comments all to similar to what i feel about the world in general, I can't see how with the over human population and growing wealth in the world man can co exist with wild places, and the animals who live there. I don't just mean some tropical far away places, I mean even our own country. Houses and roads built near local ponds results in the deaths of local amphibian populations either falling down the road drains or run over, not to mention hedgehog deaths, etc.our country lanes here are littered with corpses of young birds and animals hit by cars. Some it has to be said on purpose (hedgehogs squashed into the kerb/verge sides)

Finally -and this will be my last post for a while as I'm off on holiday in a couple of hours- In breeding and Hybridization are 2 separate things, tigers for example can be inbred but still pure, unless say Amur and Sumatrans are crossed, then you have a pointless hybrid, to most folk it is still a tiger, but no longer genetically pure. Though I'm sure you knew that already.