The German Adventures Of A Tea-Loving Dave - April 2014

There were two Southern Luzon Cloud Rats on display two weeks ago. :)

Excellent news :D I'd be interested in your thoughts on my discussion of Gondwanaland incidentally - along with any up-to-date information you may have which has bearing on my opinions!
 
The old bird-aviaries, the penguin rock and the bird-house will disappear during the next three years, so no renovation works will take place until the demolition.

All smaller birds are going to relocate to Gondwanaland, both species of ibis already moved to the Flamingo-aviary. Their cage is used for northern bald ibis during the reconstruction of the great vulture aviary.

Only one or two species of parrots will remain at the zoo according to the recent planning.
 
What's planned for that area? As noted, I thought the bird house was quite good so it'll be a shame for it to go.
 
TLD, perhaps I am reading your review wrong but it seemed that the cloud rats are mixed in the walk-through exhibit? When I visited they were I a separate enclosure within the walk through!
 
The Southern cloud rats are living in a cage inside the walk-through exhibit.

@Dave
An island for Lion-tailed macaques and Dholes is planed at the area of the bird-house, a walkable aviary for birds of Australia and Papua New Guinea at the area of the old parrot cages.
 
Excellent news :D I'd be interested in your thoughts on my discussion of Gondwanaland incidentally - along with any up-to-date information you may have which has bearing on my opinions!

Well, we did notice a lot of birds this time around. More species and much bigger numbers than your list. The stocking level seems pretty much perfect now - it's a bit closer to 'natural' levels for patchy woodland! I don't believe it was ever the intention to keep the levels low - simply to let the birds breed up naturally. In fact, we generally seem to have seen more animals (though notably not the Giant Otters) than yourselves. The quolls were much more visible as well, even disregarding the fact they're in two enclosures now.

As a building - it's good - not perfect, by any means, but good. A few of the enclosures are a little small for my liking, but most OK. I still don't understand why Bat-eared Foxes are in there.

Oh, and it's warm in there but I do think you've rather over-stated it! :D
 
TLD, perhaps I am reading your review wrong but it seemed that the cloud rats are mixed in the walk-through exhibit? When I visited they were I a separate enclosure within the walk through!

Yeah, my review didn't make that clear enough :)

@Dave
An island for Lion-tailed macaques and Dholes is planed at the area of the bird-house, a walkable aviary for birds of Australia and Papua New Guinea at the area of the old parrot cages.

If that just ends up being budgerigars, lorikeets and diamond doves it will be a shame, and not worth the trade-off. Now if it ended up having a Bird of Paradise or two..... ;)

Well, we did notice a lot of birds this time around. More species and much bigger numbers than your list. The stocking level seems pretty much perfect now - it's a bit closer to 'natural' levels for patchy woodland!

................

The quolls were much more visible as well, even disregarding the fact they're in two enclosures

Good to hear it :) whereabouts was the second quoll enclosure?
 
Good to hear it :) whereabouts was the second quoll enclosure?

The second is the enclosure that was Virginia Opossum when the house opened (and when I first saw it). The quolls were only in the first one on my 2011 visit.
 
The second is the enclosure that was Virginia Opossum when the house opened (and when I first saw it). The quolls were only in the first one on my 2011 visit.

Either I was completely oblivious and missed them in that enclosure, or they were just in the first enclosure when I visited :) not even sure I can mentally picture where that enclosure was in relation to the other three.....
 
Either I was completely oblivious and missed them in that enclosure, or they were just in the first enclosure when I visited :) not even sure I can mentally picture where that enclosure was in relation to the other three.....

It's the third one - so originally quoll-loris-opossum-kowari and now quoll-loris-quoll-kowari.


(Also, this is the beginning of a much better phonetic alphabet than the boring NATO one.)
 
That explains it then; there were definitely no quolls housed next to the kowari, so that enclosure must have still been empty when I visited and thus completely forgotten by myself.
 
That explains it then; there were definitely no quolls housed next to the kowari, so that enclosure must have still been empty when I visited and thus completely forgotten by myself.

I remember quolls in 2 separate enclosures back in 2012, so maybe your memory did fail you ;)

Regarding the Australian aviary, Leipzig is not known to bring in just the ABC animals, so I think you can rest assured that they will keep more than only budgerigars ;)
 
I visited Leipizig in september 2014.
The order is quoll - slow loris - kowari, and finally after turning a corner, another enclosure for quolls (previously opposum)

I did see a reasonable amount of birds, including black crakes, lesser Brasilian teals, fulvous whistling ducks, sunbittern, masked lapwings, pied imperial-pigeons, nicobar pigeon, madagascar fody and white-crowned robin chat. Also Chinese water dragon, green iguana and Golfodulcean poison dart frog.
 
I'd be very interested in hearing any feedback or discussion any other Zoochatters have of my overall review of Zoo Berlin posted above, incidentally; do you agree with me? Do you think I was too lenient? Do you think I'm completely and utterly wrong? If any of these, why?

Basically, if anyone has something to contribute to the topic, feel free :)

I just got back from a long weekend in Berlin, where I visited the Zoo, Tierpark and Aquarium on three separate days. I thought I might have a crack at this, especially as this is one of my favourite threads. It's also likely that without reading this I wouldn't have gone to Berlin this year, so a big thank you for that!

For context I have visited most of the UK's 'Big' zoos, plus Melbourne and Copenhagen. Lots of smaller collections as well, but they don't really inform my opinions here. I would put my top five before this weekend as follows: Melbourne, Chester, Copenhagen, Colchester, Edinburgh. Perhaps that may be helpful in understanding what I am comparing Berlin to.

I'll jump straight to my conclusion, addressed to TLD: your reviews are mostly on point but I think that your enjoyment of the collections has overly softened your criticisms of the negatives.

The breadth of the collection, especially when taken across both sites (7 bear species!) is stunning, and is the obvious draw of the zoos. Even though I don't know enough about animals in captivity to really appreciate a lot of the rarities I was still blown away by the commitment to representing variation within taxonomic groups. I certainly haven't experienced anything like it. Whether it's seeing five Red Deer subspecies (or at least various subspecies of Red Deer and Wapiti) side by side or seeing two of the very few Ganges Gharial in Europe, Berlin offers a very different zoo experience to any other collection I have visited.

The question though, is whether that's a good thing. It's obviously fun for zoonerds, and there is a clear educational value for everyone in being able to see unusual species and come to understand that the world is much larger and more varied than they previously thought. But I find it very hard to accept that one could visit the Berlin collections, bar the Aquarium, and leave without any real understanding of conservation issues, or the conservation status of the animals you have seen. I get that that's not Berlin's 'thing' but there is missed opportunity and then there is negligence of opportunity and I think Berlin falls into the latter in my book.

I will touch on enclosures a little further down, but for the flow of my argument here I will just state that I think, unlike TLD, that the emphasis on variety has led to undersized exhibits and perhaps to exhibits that fail their inhabitants in other welfare capacities, due to wanting to ensure that animals are 'on show'.

Furthermore, and here lies the real thrust of the negative side of my comments, I think the whole philosophy of a zoo being a sort of textbook for people to learn about animals creates a physical and mental environment where humans' needs are placed above those of the animals, and reinforces the dangerous idea that an animal is on the Earth to be exploited by humanity. In contrast, most zoos feel more like a home for animals where humans are ushered in as respectful guests to learn how they can help protect these species both in captivity and in the wild. Perhaps I am over-romanticising this argument, but to support my views I saw behavior by children in the presence of their teachers that I have never seen elsewhere. Things like poking penguins or crossing standoff barriers to get closer to tiger cubs. I cite these not just because they show a lack of consideration to the animals involved but also a lack of understanding that animals can be dangerous and unpredictable.

This displaying mentality is most obvious in the Houses, where rows of windows side by side show different species. Sometimes, like the primate houses in both collections, I think this has been done whilst maintaining acceptable and sometimes good quality enclosures, but I still find it fundamentally unengaging as a way of presenting animals. It doesn't encourage people to linger on an exhibit, and even as an enthusiast I found myself getting 'species burnout'. Obviously, as with both carnivore houses, it can also lead to some devastating enclosure quality consequences. I think TLD was mostly right with his praise of certain enclosures here , and too lenient in his criticism of the substandard ones, but I will just clarify a point below that I didn't previously understand despite having read this thread several times.

[I've actually moved this section to a separate post below as I felt I had derailed my own argument with it.]

There are of course good enclosures, and great ones. The Vulture aviary, the Seashore Aviary, the Brown Bear exhibit, virtually all the Tierpark paddocks, the California Sea Lions to name but some. A lot of the Zoo's might be nearer acceptable than good, but they make up for that by being iconic for historic and aesthetic reasons. The Antelope House is to memory the most beautiful inanimate thing I have seen in a zoo.

As a last paragraph I would note that the Aquarium feels far more modern and most of my criticisms do not apply to it. I think if the collections are brought in line with the style and approach shown there that would be a good thing.

So those were my thoughts. I know I've come across as very down on the collections, but that is partly to offer a counterpoint to the thoughts of TLD which I have attempted to make this post a response to. I hope no offense is taken where I have specifically highlighted points where I think he is wrong, perhaps they will spark some discussion! It would have been less interesting had I just listed the bits I agree with him on I think. I did really enjoy my visits to both the Zoo and the Tierpark.

In closing I would say that the Zoo is absolutely one of the greats of Europe, though I suspect that as I visit more zoos on the continent it will fall further and further down my list. For now I'd put it behind Copenhagen. I think the stain of the Alfred Brehm House prevents me from considering the Tierpark to be good full stop. Even if this were not the case I would find it to be like Whipsnade, a great wildlife park that is just too 'large mammal heavy' to truly feel like a great zoo.
 
Here is my specific point about the ABH that didn't fit into my other post:

In the Alfred Brehm House, some of the cats only have access to either the inside or the out of their enclosures. When I looked at the pictures in the gallery I thought that it looked terrible, but I had assumed that the animals at least had access to both the inside house and the cage. That this is not so can only be condemned in the strongest tone. I appreciate that many zoos have housing issues that they cannot fix overnight, and that it may not be possible to transfer individuals to other collections even if the zoo wanted to, but the current state in the ABH is a complete joke. There are big cats in 3x5m cells (my estimate) that do not have access to the outdoor cage because some other cat is in there. Many of the enclosures are occupied by smaller cats and I refuse to believe that the zoo is so impoverished that it cannot build medium sized Howletts style enclosures for the smaller species. Heaven knows they have the space.

It is without a doubt the worst carnivore housing situation I have ever seen, and I've been to Tallinn.
 
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This is exactly the kind of in-depth response with counter-points and alternate opinions that I hoped this thread would lead to :) quite frankly I'd love it if even more people posted comments like this about my walkthrough of the collections! One minor quibble, however:

The worst example was a Javan Leopard confined inside whilst the outdoors was occupied by Pallas Cats, despite there being a currently UNUSED Pallas cat enclosure in the Mountain Zoo.

The Pallas Cat enclosure you mention in the Mountain area of the collection did not exist when I visited, and as far as I know the species has never *been* held in that portion of Tierpark Berlin; considering the fact it is a matter of record that the plan is to convert the ABH into a solely South-east Asian focus, maybe the enclosure you saw is a new build which the Pallas Cats are intended to move into?

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By the by, I have not forgotten the final bit of Leipzig's walkthrough, nor the second day of the Tierpark walkthrough :) I prefer to type for long periods of time on the main desktop computer in my house; my father has been using this computer almost 24/7 of late working on his undergraduate Archaeology dissertation, so I haven't had the chance to post anything new in a while.

However I *have* been doing handwritten notes for these sections of my report, along with handwritten notes for the Bavarian trip report I also need to start uploading, so that once my dad finishes his dissertation I can catch up ASAP :)
 
The Pallas Cat enclosure you mention in the Mountain area of the collection did not exist when I visited, and as far as I know the species has never *been* held in that portion of Tierpark Berlin; considering the fact it is a matter of record that the plan is to convert the ABH into a solely South-east Asian focus, maybe the enclosure you saw is a new build which the Pallas Cats are intended to move into?

I went and found a more detailed map on the web and it turns out I am referring to the Common Raven enclosure on the Lookout. No idea why I thought it was for Pallas Cats. I'm pretty sure it was unoccupied on Monday though. I definitely think this enclosure could hold cat. I'll edit my previous post.

Is there a detail plan somewhere for this South-east Asian Focus that is publicly available?
 
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FunkyGibbon, thanks for such a well-written set of posts. A nice and well-reasoned argument with which most of us would find some level of agreement. Some controversial points though.
'Species burnout' is a brilliant phrase, and I remember really struggling on my first visit to Berlin.
Although there are cases (like the ABH and the larger animal housing) where enclosure size might be called into question, I think the content and enrichment are usually a bigger issue here. Let's not forget that these are city zoos in a capital city. :)
 
Is there a detail plan somewhere for this South-east Asian Focus that is publicly available?

Here you go :)

http://www.parlament-berlin.de/ados/17/Haupt/vorgang/h17-1628-v.pdf

I'll quote the post I wrote in another thread about the plan:

To summarise what I suspect will be the development of most interest to Anglophone zoochatters, the Alfred-Brehm is to be gutted and focused on Indonesian wildlife, with a Balinese theme. Tomistoma and Komodo Dragon will be kept in the central hall, with most of the inner tanks and aviaries converted to terrariums and the internal animal enclosures largely rendered offshow. Also, the number of enclosures will be reduced through merging and consolidation of existing enclosures.

At a guess, the carnivore species in the house will be reduced to as few as four or five: Binturong, Sumatran Tiger, Palawan Leopard Cat, Javan Leopard and possibly Fishing Cat or Malayan Civet.
 
I visited Tierpark Berlin four days ago (Monday) and the Zoo and Aquarium the following day (Tuesday) and I find myself agreeing to the points made by FunkyGibbon. I am currently still driving through Europe (in Walsrode at the moment) so I will write my thoughts on this more in depth when I get to the UK in a few days but I just wanted to mention a couple of things:

The big cat enclosures in the ABH are or course awful, but I think the Sun bear enclosures were just as bad, if not worse. They weren't the worst carnivore enclosures I have seen, but they were the worst I have seen in Europe by a fair way. I think that I preferred Berlin Zoo+Aquarium (I visited them both on the same day with a combined ticket so they are very much together as one in my mind) to Tierpark but there were so many fantastic areas of both and with an upgrade to the awful bits, I could consider them to be the best zoos I've ever been to (at least that was until yesterday when I visited Weltvogelpark Walsrode which blew both Berlin Collections out of the water for me). I will write more on this subject when I have more time, but for now I will say that the thing that makes the places great - the huge diversity of species (I got more than a hundred lifers in each of zoo and Tierpark - had led to certain bits being over-stuffed with animals to the point were there isn't enough space for everything. A balance needs to be made in some areas (like the ABH) for diversity and space given to the animals. Maybe the new director will do something like this, who knows. I do hope that this isn't over done though, because it would be very easy to end up with a boring collection of ABC animals with the greatest asset that these collections have of the diversity of species being lost.
 
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