5 things we need to stop telling ourselves about zoos

how is it "causing waves in the zoo community"? It is the same old recycled twisted arguments which CAPS regurgitate all the time. It may "cause waves" amongst uninformed readers of Animals Australia but the "zoo community" has heard it parroted plenty of times before.
 
That's sad real sad... And even worse most people don't even notice

The only thing that is "sad real sad" is the way the same tripe keeps getting spouted by the anti-zoo lobby, only for uncritical eyes to parrot the information, take it at face value, and call it "sad real sad"........
 
how is it "causing waves in the zoo community"? It is the same old recycled twisted arguments which CAPS regurgitate all the time. It may "cause waves" amongst uninformed readers of Animals Australia but the "zoo community" has heard it parroted plenty of times before.

Animals Australia has almost 1,000,000 Facebook followers. Zoos Victoria, by comparison, has 116,000. Animals Australia is well respected here for driving the animal welfare agenda, particularly with live animal exports, battery farming, puppy farming, and racing. I wouldn't be surprised if zoos release an official response. It's in their interest to set the record straight.
 
Animals Australia has almost 1,000,000 Facebook followers. Zoos Victoria, by comparison, has 116,000. Animals Australia is well respected here for driving the animal welfare agenda, particularly with live animal exports, battery farming, puppy farming, and racing. I wouldn't be surprised if zoos release an official response. It's in their interest to set the record straight.
but you specifically said it was "causing waves". This response is nothing even close to "causing waves" - it is just you googling numbers of Facebook followers and then making assumptions.
 
A few years ago, I contacted CAPS to dispute some of the statements listed on its website. I received a courteous reply. I have friends who have visited zoos with me and point out issues to do with animal welfare and I feel that animals should be cared for properly in zoos and that Zoochatters should listen to counter-arguments about zoos and accept that some critics have valid points. There are big problems with some of the myths listed in the article, especially those that assume zoo animals are happy or that zoo staff care more about animals than money or conservation.

MYTH 1: ‘Zoos exist for conservation’
The statement mentions conservation projects, but also states that most species in zoos are not on the endangered list and those that are will probably never be rehabilitated to their natural habitat. After visiting several zoos, I must accept that I tend to agree with this statement. Many species in captivity are ‘Not Yet Threatened’ and some of these species are very common in captivity. Very few of the endangered large ABC species are destined for rehabilitation, despite zoos stating that a new, expensive enclosure is required to save the species from extinction.
I find the statement that zoos exist primarily for profit somewhat ambiguous. If zoos didn’t make a profit, they would find it hard to exist, especially if visitor numbers went down over a prolonged period.
I have heard of zoos that have lots of baby animals at Easter and then having a mass cull when the zoo closes after the holiday season is over.
I did not agree with Marius being killed publicly, but I can understand why zoos control population numbers. CAPS doesn’t mention that population control occurs in the wild and this helps create ecological balance. In fact, several species live longer, healthier lives in zoos than they do in the wild.
CAPS is also somewhat ambiguous about complaining that zoos do not send many animals back to the wild and then complaining about relocating animals to other zoos. I agree that relocated animals can suffer stress, ‘as they leave behind social bonds and surroundings they have grown accustomed to’. Wouldn’t that be more true if the animals were returned to the wild?

Myth 2 ‘Zoos are the best place to learn about animals’
I doubt if any zoo makes this statement. Many good zoos pay for staff to travel to find out how animals exist in the wild and many enclosures are more natural than they used to be. Scientists have been confused about the behaviour of zoo animals. Solly Zuckerman made several assumptions from the behaviour of monkeys at London Zoo.
I have been to zoos with people who have little interest in animals. Some colleagues spent practically all their time in the restaurant and bar and I wondered why they had come to the zoo at all. Whilst I would like visitors to become more interested in animals, a zoo can’t force a person to be interested any more than a teacher can force a student to be interested in a subject. I have visited zoos with people who do not like zoos, but who do care about animal welfare and I have found it useful to listen to different views.
I agree that it is better to see animals in the wild, but many people can’t afford to travel to exotic places and some safari tours seem to be very more stressful to animals. Also, many nature documentaries include footage of captive animals.

MYTH 3: Zoos are a ‘normal’ part of society

I don’t really understand what this means. Zoos have been around for centuries, so if they are not a ‘normal’ part of society, then cars, planes, computers etc are not ‘normal’. I remember when practically every shop was closed on a Sunday and when there were no ATMs, so if I ran out of money between Friday afternoon and Monday morning, tough.
While elephants and giraffes are not Australian species, I find it strange that the author doesn’t realise that penguins existed in Australia long before cities did; also, a large majority of Australian cities are on the coast.
I agree that there is a problem with ‘dangerous creatures’ escaping from zoos and I would like zoos to take more care with species that can endanger staff and visitors, although I suspect that many visitors prefer to see dangerous animals rather than docile ones. I would also prefer escaped animals to be sedated rather than killed.
MYTH 4: ‘Animals in zoos are happy’
This is a strange argument. I wonder how many people think that zoo animals are happy or would know about the state of mind of an individual animal. Some animals show little expression of emotions, while some facial signals are confusing – for example a ‘smile’ may be a threat signal.
Humans are not the only animals that show a range of emotions. Some captive animals show signs of anxiety and depression, but then some wild animals show the same emotions, as do many visitors and staff in zoos. Several zoos have improved animal welfare and note when animals show ‘abnormal behaviour’, including information in notices about how they are trying to help the animals. I agree that it is distressing to see an animal with psychological problems. I remember seeing a stump-tailed macaque that tore flesh out of one of its cheeks. The zoo had a notice about this, but I think it would have been better to put the monkey off show.
I accept that the article is about Australian zoos, but it doesn’t mention that many British zoos stopped keeping polar bears after a report detailed mental health problems of the bears. I also wonder if the authors are bothered the causes of neurosis and depression in humans.

MYTH 5: ‘Zoos care’

I wonder if the statement ‘Zoos care about one thing above all else: profit’ really applies to some zoo directors. I know several caring zoo staff, some of whom work unpaid overtime and some who have cared for zoo animals in their homes. I don’t know about the finances of various zoos, but I agree with CAPS that it would be better to spend millions of pounds to save species in the wild, rather than in expensive enclosures, which often lead to a diminished collection.
Many years ago, Gerald Durrell said he would like to live in an age where zoos were not needed, as animals were safe in the wild. This time has not been reached. When London Zoo was threatened with closure, I was told that a high-profile member of Zoo Check had been seen crying about what would happen to the animals if the zoo were closed. As Zoo Check was set up to try and close London Zoo, I found this behaviour to be hypocritical.

I can understand why some people are upset about the way animals are kept in zoos and agree that animal welfare should be improved in some zoos, while there are zoos that show little care for animals. Several Zoochatters have mentioned and condemned such collections. The problem is that several protagonists on both sides of the argument tend to treat all zoos as the same – wonderful or awful. People visit zoos for various reasons – some learn about animals; some show little interest and can try and harm animals. Many people cannot afford to see exotic animals in the wild and a zoo may be the closest they get to this. There is a difference between seeing a live animal in a zoo, rather than seeing a TV programme. Some people pay a lot of money to see sports or concerts, even though they can see if on the TV.
 
A few years ago, I contacted CAPS to dispute some of the statements listed on its website. I received a courteous reply. I have friends who have visited zoos with me and point out issues to do with animal welfare and I feel that animals should be cared for properly in zoos and that Zoochatters should listen to counter-arguments about zoos and accept that some critics have valid points. There are big problems with some of the myths listed in the article, especially those that assume zoo animals are happy or that zoo staff care more about animals than money or conservation.
I would like to think most Zoochatters are well aware of problems in and with zoos, but the thing with the anti-zoo brigade is that they aren't actually interested in solutions or engaging in sensible dialogue. You are basically with them or against them (i.e. you either want all zoos closed down or you are evil). And as can be seen in that article, they show a disturbing black and white attitude to the world and a worrying inattention to reality. Zoo fans don't disregard CAPS articles because they want to ignore problems, they disregard them because they are propaganda.

The article isn't actually about Australian zoos in particular, by the way, it is a re-write of this 2014 Huffington Post (USA) article 11 Things You Should Know Before Planning Your Next Trip To The Zoo which is no doubt itself a re-write of something earlier.
 
Hello Chli

I've read a few CAPS newsletters and I've agreed with some comments and not with others. I don't believe that the people I know who are anti-zoo are any less objective than those who are pro-zoo. I think both sides can learn from each other and that they should be objective about zoo-related arguments. I am against animal cruelty and I agree with the CAPS to stop wild animals taking part in degrading acts. I also think that anti-zoo campaigners are naïve if they think that zoos can release all their animals into the wild. Not only would this be costly, but it would be very cruel. Similarly, animal rights campaigners have caused a lot of problems by releasing minks into the UK.
 
I don’t know about the finances of various zoos, but I agree with CAPS that it would be better to spend millions of pounds to save species in the wild, rather than in expensive enclosures, which often lead to a diminished collection.


I enjoyed reading most of the thread, but never understand this throw money at it will solve the problem.

The surrounding areas of the Virungas had issue with people going into the national parks to collect firewood, they didn't thrown millions of pounds at it, by giving people money to buy wood from outside of the national park. They set up a fire brick industry which now gives work and reuses waste material, to reduce this and provide low cost fuel.

Automatically by visiting a zoo and paying your entrances fee you are donating to conservations projects (in all good zoos) which many do not realise, how many would give directly to one of these projects otherwise?

So do you leave animals in outdated exhibits to send money to conservation projects?
Do you let the zoo go stale so no one visits so you have no money left to give to conservation projects? How does your average joe then contribute if they cannot go to a zoo and learn about it? (and contributing without knowing it)

In an ideal world there would be no zoos, but we do not live in an ideal world.
 
In an ideal world there would be no zoos, but we do not live in an ideal world.

A world with no zoos sounds far from ideal - in fact more like Hell to me. My ideal world would be full of zoos. As a zoo-enthusiast it would be the height of hypocrisy to make a statement like that.
 
but the thing with the anti-zoo brigade is that they aren't actually interested in solutions or engaging in sensible dialogue. You are basically with them or against them (i.e. you either want all zoos closed down or you are evil)

Yeah, this is increasingly the way that much of the anti-zoo lobby comes across to me. Just look at the "zoo-anti" who joined the site recently in order to post long rants about how horrific zoos were, but when directly asked to provide solutions or engage in sensible dialogue came out with gems like:

I have much better things to do with my time than sit and write in depth discussion on ethics when the responses will be so predictable.

the zoos you people adore have no integrity but i do and I will not have it questioned on here with people who think they know it all but know very little.

Very few people on this site give a damn about ethics or animal welfare.......the higher the number the bigger their ego grows and the more they think they know about the animals. When in fact they just lap up anything the zoo tells them

It's really hard not to be angry on here when you get people that are so obtuse. And have their own agendas and can't be shifted from them. It seems this is a place where zoos are considered God like and can do no wrong.
 
A world with no zoos sounds far from ideal - in fact more like Hell to me. My ideal world would be full of zoos. As a zoo-enthusiast it would be the height of hypocrisy to make a statement like that.

Depends on whether I am a zoo-enthusiast or not?

I would say I am not, but is there an actual definition of the term?
 
Automatically by visiting a zoo and paying your entrances fee you are donating to conservations projects (in all good zoos) which many do not realise, how many would give directly to one of these projects otherwise?
So do you leave animals in outdated exhibits to send money to conservation projects?
Do you let the zoo go stale so no one visits so you have no money left to give to conservation projects? How does your average joe then contribute if they cannot go to a zoo and learn about it? (and contributing without knowing it)

It is a case of balance and I wonder if some zoos get ripped off by builders. Does it really cost millions of pounds to create a new exhibit? I have worked in a council and in a hospital and have seen how much public services are charged for certain items. Just because something costs £1 million doesn't mean it is worth 10 times as much as something that costs £100,000. The same thing applies to new zoo exhibits. I remember the barred concrete boxes of the 1960s and I realise that they were unsuitable for animals. The Highland Wildlife Park spent £85 converting an enclosure to house Pallas's cats. New exhibits needn't be expensive. One of my favourite exhibits was the Rodent House at Berlin Tierpark. It was basically a large garden shed, but had an interesting collection of small mammals, including cururos and dassie rats. While I understand that some zoo exhibits are outdated, I do not believe that they need to be replaced by very expensive exhibits. I would prefer zoos to raise money for endangered species, where most of the money would be used to protect the animals in the wild, where local people could benefit financially from wildlife, rather than feeling they are in conflict with animals. Years ago, I went to Shepreth Wildlife Park, where there were several opportunities to donate money to conservation projects, including projects conserving animals that were not kept in the collection. The 'Average Joe' was encouraged to help other animals.
Another problem with new exhibits is the 'Listed Building Syndrome', where it can be very difficult to alter a building, due to its architectural value. An expensive building would probably be more likely to fall into this trap. Unfortunately, I don't think Berrlin Tierpark had any real problems removing the Rodent House.
 
The article leaves out the real reason for Zoos - Education. No the Tiger's in the new exhibit will probably never be released in the wild. That isn't the point of the exhibit though. The Tigers in that exhibit serve as symbols of conservation for everyday people to make emotional connections with animals.
 
Many years ago, Gerald Durrell said he would like to live in an age where zoos were not needed, as animals were safe in the wild.

Much as I loved GD, this statement, and variations of it from Attenborough, too many zoo staff, and a surprising number on Zoochat, really makes me want to reach for the sick bag.

I enjoy seeing wild animals, and I have also enjoyed looking after wild animals. I don't think I am alone in that. If the animals do not suffer by being kept in captivity, then that is enough. Yes, conservation matters, of course it does, but it is not what it is all about, in my opinion.
 
Depends on whether I am a zoo-enthusiast or not?

I would say I am not, but is there an actual definition of the term?

Apologies. I wasn't making a judgement on whether you were a zoo enthusiast or not (though I do think that many of your previous posts suggest you are). I was speaking about myself - but hoping that this stance was the consensus on a forum that is theoretically made up of zoo enthusiasts. You stated as fact that "In an ideal world there would be no zoos". I wanted to draw attention to the fact that this is just one opinion.

Sooty Mangabey's comment perfectly reflects my own thoughts.
 
Hello Chli

I've read a few CAPS newsletters and I've agreed with some comments and not with others. I don't believe that the people I know who are anti-zoo are any less objective than those who are pro-zoo. I think both sides can learn from each other and that they should be objective about zoo-related arguments.
there is a difference, though, between people who are anti-zoo and organisations which are anti-zoo.

Individual people who are "anti" would run the range between simply disliking zoos (perhaps even without ever having visited a zoo in their life) to those who are full-blown haters. You can have perfectly functional discussions with (probably most) individual zoo-antis - they may not accept all your viewpoints but they will be able to see where you are coming from, just as you can see where they may be coming from. In many cases you both may have common ground (on animal welfare, for example). [Disclaimer: I am talking about conversations in real life, not in the comments sections of CAPS propaganda material! :D]

Organisations such as CAPS, however, are what I was referring to with my previous post. Their aim is to shut down zoos and indeed shut down any other activity involving animals (such as keeping pets) - and they often appear to be campaigning for little more than shock publicity value. The bigger their following, the more money they make. Their arguments rely on taking a truth, distorting it beyond reality, and making it all-encompassing of the world's zoos - they use that underlying element to provide a mask of verisimilitude.
 
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