Platypuses! Must be some chance?!

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wildzoo said:
The San Diego Zoo has bred 6 babies in captivity; who were born to Bai Yun since 1996. I have never heard of a Chinese zoo being as successful; but admit I have never researched if that is that case or not. By mere fact San Diego Zoo is mentioned as running one of the most successful Panda Breeding programs I just assumed China was not seeing the same levels of success- or else we would hear more about it.
see, this is part of your problem. You don't know - you read one thing and assume that is all there is. You don't bother to look at anything else to even try and verify what you are saying.

wildzoo said:
Anyway this article discredits the whole notion of saving endangered animals using captive breeding.
no, it does nothing of the sort. It is an article specifically about the issues with captive-breeding giant pandas in China. That is all.

wildzoo said:
Either you accept allowing people to breed natives in captivity and own them in the pet trade or you confide them to extinction in the wild. That is how I see it.
that... how shall I put this? ... is one of the stupidest things I have read this week. Seriously, that was the nicest way I could think of.
 
I'm not talking about selling all the wild animals to be kept as pets. I am saying if we established viable captive populations of wild animals and kept them in the pet trade it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
no it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but saying that isn't the same as what you just said earlier ("Either you accept allowing people to breed natives in captivity and own them in the pet trade or you confide them to extinction in the wild").

wildzoo said:
They may not save wild animals, but I can't see the harm in them either if they are not impacting wild animals. Sure there may only be a handful of Bengals left, but the captive ones are closer than anything else we are going to get to Bengals. As we do not live in an ideal world all I am saying is they are better than nothing. Although I don't believe in releasing captive Bengals into the wild for obvious reasons- they are genetically unsound.
well, closer than anything else except, you know, actual Bengal tigers. You're really all over the place with this. On the one hand you are saying pet owners will save species from extinction, but then in the next breath saying something like hybrids are better than nothing and you don't think they should be released anyway. So... just pets then?

wildzoo said:
I used to think protecting native habitat was the key to saving animals in the wild, but we see now that environmental changes such as droughts and now diseases also have to be factored in when working out a strategy to save wildlife. It's within this context that I think captive animals, while not conserving wild populations, can at least preserve a species in captivity; which in some instances may be the only choice we have.
er, yes, that is the whole philosophy of captive-breeding for conservation. Protect the habitat, deal with other issues, conserve the species in captivity until such time as it can be reintroduced or as an insurance population.
 
But if you look at for example the Veiled Chameleon, who lives a very delicate existence in small pockets of forest in Saudi Arabia and Yemen; and see how the captive population in the US and Europe has ensured it's survival in the wild.

The veiled chameleon is not "delicate" in any way. Rather, it is one of the few chameleons that has proven itself capable of living in highly modified habitats, almost to the extent where it can called a synanthrope. In most of its range it is found at high densities. Gardens, plantations, etc, are just as suitable as its "original" habitat. There are however plenty of other chameleon species that are extremely vulnerable: mostly species restricted to East/Central African highlands+species from Madagascar. The problem is that these threatened chameleons usually have proven rather delicate in captivity; little or no breeding despite attempts by specialists.

Platypus are susceptible to changes that could mean they become endangered in a relatively small time frame if something similar to what is happening in Tasmania ever made it's way to the mainland.

Overall the platypus can hardly be defined as particularly susceptible. At least unless you want to classify something like 50% of the worlds species as susceptible! Sure there are subpopulations that have declined (some drastically so), but quite large populations remain and there are no indications that anything like a species-wide crash could happen. Its distribution also spans over a fairly wide latitude, which itself works as a security against e.g. climate change.

The San Diego Zoo has bred 6 babies in captivity; who were born to Bai Yun since 1996. I have never heard of a Chinese zoo being as successful; but admit I have never researched if that is that case or not. By mere fact San Diego Zoo is mentioned as running one of the most successful Panda Breeding programs I just assumed China was not seeing the same levels of success- or else we would hear more about it.

Together, the centers at Chengdu and Wolong have bred more than 200, far outdoing everywhere else. The giant pandas outside China are essentially "ambassadors" of the species. Fine if they breed too, but not all that important to its captive population by now – even if zoos outside China always hail it as a massive step in conservation whenever one of their pandas give birth. While I have my reservations about the Chinese "panda farms" (as some spitefully have called them), they're the only reason we have giant pandas in captivity today*. The captive population is now at a level where it actually can function as a security buffer should the wild population disappear, which however is unlikely. Releasing captive animals to the wild has never been easy. Regardless of species only a fool without any knowledge of reintroductions would expect the first attempt to be an unconditional success (interestingly, the people that want orcas released often seem to forget this, but that's another discussion). The dailymail article keeps the standard I expect from them.

* With the exception of the Mexican (etc), but that's clearly not enough to base a population on.
 
Well if the Platypus is in no danger why can't people own it?

I think a lot of people overseas and within Australia are sick of the elitist way conversationalists act. When normal people are excluded from the process it's easy to question what the point of it all is.
 
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Sure there may only be a handful of Bengals left, but the captive ones are closer than anything else we are going to get to Bengals. As we do not live in an ideal world all I am saying is they are better than nothing. Although I don't believe in releasing captive Bengals into the wild for obvious reasons- they are genetically unsound.

You missed Chli's point here I suspect; there are plenty of pure Bengal Tigers in captivity, just few-to-none outside India.

Basically, all "Bengal" tigers in captivity outside India are hybrids - many of which are pretty distant from any Bengal descent, at that - but pretty much all the captive tigers in India are a) pure and b) Bengal.
 
No I didn't miss the point. My point is we don't live in a perfect world. If tigers became extinct in the wild overnight I would be content with seeing a captive mongrel tiger over nothing. I don't see how it's realistic trying to save the Bengal or Panda when it's clear the societies they come from have no intention of saving the animals.

The great irony with tigers is amateurs in the US may have saved them- even if they are not in their original form. Would we be richer or poorer if we lost the mongrels in captivity along with those in the wild.

Regarding Australian natives I think we would benefit from allowing people overseas to own some of our animals. Although yes I admit I prefer to see animals in the wild and say there is nothing like it- but for many seeing them in the wild is not an option.

But what can I say- this issue is too complex for me to understand. I'm all for conservation and personally have no interest in owning natives and think they should remain in the wild. But unless we as a society are going to deal with the real causes of extinction in Australia- feral animals and pet dogs and cats- then I would prefer we allow natives to be kept in captivity here and overseas rather than see animals disappear forever. Even if that means they exist in captivity in a form that is different from the wild- isn't it better than not having that animal at all.
 
Well if the Platypus is in no danger why can't people own it?

I think a lot of people overseas and within Australia are sick of the elitist way conversationalists act. When normal people are excluded from the process it's easy to question what the point of it all is.

That a species is plentiful in the wild doesn't make it suitable to keep it as a pet. It is still a species with very specific husbandry guidelines which is highly unsuitable for anyone without the right knowledge and budget. Most platypus would die very fast in private hands. We could have a debate if Australia should encourage some endemic species to be kept as a pet and ban keeping some of the non-natives (highest on that list would be cats), but that has nothing to do with the status of platypus'.

And people in many countries can own Australian animals only very few do so. The most common species in private hands are sugargliders and red-necked wallabies and although both are common most wallabies are not kept in a true pet situation and even sugargliders are not as common as many other pets due to some significant disadvantages (they smell, they need specific diet and they are nocturnal). So you might be sick of the elitist view of conservationists, I do not think you could generalise that statement.
 
What can I say to that haha.
well I did write out a long response to your original post here, but your strange edit simply tells me you aren't actually interested in learning anything and would rather just stick with what you think you know.
 
Even if that means they exist in captivity in a form that is different from the wild- isn't it better than not having that animal at all.

It is fascinating to have someone make the case that is the exact opposite of PETA, who appear to prefer that endangered species die in the wild rather than live in captivity under any circumstances.

Neither of these extremes makes sense to me. There is a middle way. It is not easy. It is not cheap. There will be some failures. But it is worth pursuing.
 
I think that if it means they exist in a captive form that is different from the wild, it is better than not having the animal at all, BUT ONLY if the way they live that is different from how they live in the wild is still making the animals happy.
 
That a species is plentiful in the wild doesn't make it suitable to keep it as a pet. It is still a species with very specific husbandry guidelines which is highly unsuitable for anyone without the right knowledge and budget. Most platypus would die very fast in private hands. We could have a debate if Australia should encourage some endemic species to be kept as a pet and ban keeping some of the non-natives (highest on that list would be cats), but that has nothing to do with the status of platypus'.

And people in many countries can own Australian animals only very few do so. The most common species in private hands are sugargliders and red-necked wallabies and although both are common most wallabies are not kept in a true pet situation and even sugargliders are not as common as many other pets due to some significant disadvantages (they smell, they need specific diet and they are nocturnal). So you might be sick of the elitist view of conservationists, I do not think you could generalise that statement.

Yeah, I figure platypus would be difficult to own and there probably aren't a whole lot of people who would be well-suited to owning one.

Encouraging Australians to pick native animals as pets? Interesting idea. Would make for an interesting discussion.
 
well I did write out a long response to your original post here, but your strange edit simply tells me you aren't actually interested in learning anything and would rather just stick with what you think you know.

Actually I edited my post because my original reply was highly critical of you. I see you respond in this antagonistic manner to everyone all over the forum. But I decided to stop myself as I didn't want to argue. I was trying to be nice to you.

Yet, even with this latest reply you do so in the rudest way possible. I honestly don't know why people here put up with it.

You talk about things as if we already have learned everything there is to know about animals. Why can't we try other ways of doing things? Yet your the type whose only interest is in doing it your way.

For want of a better analogy. If I was keeping rainbow lorikeets you would say never feed them meat, without even trying to see if they eat meat. Yet here we find supposedly vegan lorikeets becoming carnivorous.

Rainbow lorikeets eating meat leaves bird experts astonished - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 
Actually I edited my post because my original reply was highly critical of you. I see you respond in this antagonistic manner to everyone all over the forum. But I decided to stop myself as I didn't want to argue. I was trying to be nice to you.

Yet, even with this latest reply you do so in the rudest way possible. I honestly don't know why people here put up with it.

You talk about things as if we already have learned everything there is to know about animals. Why can't we try other ways of doing things? Yet your the type whose only interest is in doing it your way.

For want of a better analogy. If I was keeping rainbow lorikeets you would say never feed them meat, without even trying to see if they eat meat. Yet here we find supposedly vegan lorikeets becoming carnivorous.

Rainbow lorikeets eating meat leaves bird experts astonished - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


The evidence you used to back up your positions are based on very limited information or factual mistakes. Chlidonias has pointed that out and explained why. He nowhere claimed we know everything, but we have to base ourselves on the knowledge we do have. We cannot just ignore some facts because they are inconvenient and it would strengthen your position if you get more knowledge and not just start attacking someone who rightly pointed out that your arguments are based on incorrect and too few facts.

Also here with Rainbow lorikeets you use a singly article to claim we do not know everything. Which would be great, but again you miss a big part of the picture. Firstly lorikeets are not vegan. Many species including rainbows do consume invertebrates. Many zoos and private breeders do feed these to them. I would not chose to feed them meat though based on this example. Firstly we do not know why these lorikeets started to eat meat, at the same time their digestive process is not adopted to it and even though this wild group eats it, it still might cause health problems.
 
...Maybe using the Indian Bengal Tiger is a better example. It is classified as endangered by the IUCN. There are more Bengals in Texas than India...

This is a widely quoted statistic in the media, so it is not surprising that you or anyone else would be familiar with it. It is also a blatant lie perpetuated by animal rights extremists as a fear tactic to push ban laws. The actual number of tigers in Texas is just over 300 (not 3,000 or 5,000), according to a study by the Feline Conservation Federation.
Feline Conservation Federation Ends Speculation about Texas Tigers
 
The evidence you used to back up your positions are based on very limited information or factual mistakes. Chlidonias has pointed that out and explained why. He nowhere claimed we know everything, but we have to base ourselves on the knowledge we do have. We cannot just ignore some facts because they are inconvenient and it would strengthen your position if you get more knowledge and not just start attacking someone who rightly pointed out that your arguments are based on incorrect and too few facts.

Also here with Rainbow lorikeets you use a singly article to claim we do not know everything. Which would be great, but again you miss a big part of the picture. Firstly lorikeets are not vegan. Many species including rainbows do consume invertebrates. Many zoos and private breeders do feed these to them. I would not chose to feed them meat though based on this example. Firstly we do not know why these lorikeets started to eat meat, at the same time their digestive process is not adopted to it and even though this wild group eats it, it still might cause health problems.

Last time I checked lorikeets had a special adaptation on the tongue to feed solely on nectar.

You constantly criticize me while in the same breath excuse someone who participates in calling others stupid and acting in such a toxic way.

I am merely putting out ideas as they come to me. I am not writing a thesis. I am not claiming to have all the answers and just trying to help.

Why I am being blamed for anything is beyond me. Do what you want- it seems to be working so well for the animals here.

Nothing worse than a forum who thinks it's ok for established members to walk all over newbies.
 
Last time I checked lorikeets had a special adaptation on the tongue to feed solely on nectar.

You constantly criticize me while in the same breath excuse someone who participates in calling others stupid and acting in such a toxic way.

I am merely putting out ideas as they come to me. I am not writing a thesis. I am not claiming to have all the answers and just trying to help.

Why I am being blamed for anything is beyond me. Do what you want- it seems to be working so well for the animals here.

Nothing worse than a forum who thinks it's ok for established members to walk all over newbies.

The only that happened is that you were pointed out that the information was incorrect and that your response to that was not very constructive. And at any forum that will happen. Again in your post here that Trichoglossus lorikeets feed solely on nectar is incorrect. Fruits and invertebrates are a normal part of their diet as well.
 
The only that happened is that you were pointed out that the information was incorrect and that your response to that was not very constructive. And at any forum that will happen. Again in your post here that Trichoglossus lorikeets feed solely on nectar is incorrect. Fruits and invertebrates are a normal part of their diet as well.

So I need a University degree with 3 years work experience around lorikeets to even make a comment about them. Great.

Maybe if you have such a problem with people going around spreading misinformation you should take it up with the news media, professors and online encyclopaedias who are perpetuating this false information instead of whinging for the sake of whinging.

If what you say is true and common, then there is no reason for anyone to be excited or amazed that they happen to eat meat. The leap from insects to meat is not that great.

Anyway I have no interest talking to know it all's whose sole purpose in life is to belittle and correct others. If you want to correct someone you can do it in other ways; but you continue to do it in the most antagonizing way possible.

Enjoy the game of intellectual one upmanship with your fellow zoochatters cause I am over this rubbish and won't be back to read any of your toxic replies.
 
If you want to correct someone you can do it in other ways; but you continue to do it in the most antagonizing way possible.

Enjoy the game of intellectual one upmanship with your fellow zoochatters cause I am over this rubbish and won't be back to read any of your toxic replies.

Am I the only one who can't see anything antagonizing or toxic in DDcorvus' comments? Or is there any (well) hidden subtext?:confused:
 
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