SeaWorld San Diego Orca shows ending, Blue World cancelled

Jibster, I know that it is extreme and that there are different reason why every species is different in captivity, but destroying animal keeping is PETA's goal, and I don't think there is any denying that. I have read lots of articles by the anti-zooers who say stuff just like what I wrote. Sure, it isn't a clear path, but think about it. around 5 years ago that guy at sea world was killed by an orca, and it spouted all this outbreak. And now we are hearing all about all these laws limiting orca care, and considering banning orcas in california, or at least banning transportation and breeding, which essentially is banning since they will eventually die out if theres no breeding or bringing new ones in. And I know i am simplifying the issue greatly. Its not as easy as "hey, lets get rid of all the tigers. ok, done. Next." But zoos slowly phasing out is what is in store for the future if we don't do anything. And if we want to spread knowledge out, you can't just do stuff inside the zoos, or conservation, even though both are necessary. You must make an appealing documentary, like blackfish, or do something similar that will create a spark shining through to an incredible number of people. Blackfish was a success for a few reasons. It came out right after that horrible accident, and it also told people what they want to believe. Sure, there is truth in blackfish, but theres also lots of lies too. And I don't know whether or not orca captivity is good or not, since every source of information is far to biased, but either way this gives anti-zoo people great power, seeing what they did in the past.

Also, there is lots of overlap between orcas and elephants:

1. They are really intelligent
2. They both need lots of space
3. They "usually" die young in captivity
4. They can do tricks and shows
5. They are dangerous and accidents happen a lot with free contact.

Nevertheless, I know that there still are lots of differences too.
 
snowleopard said:
I find it interesting that SeaWorld is doggedly hanging onto the idea of Shamu and not simply admitting that phasing out orcas is a long-term possibility. If one looks back to 30 years ago there was at least 30 dolphinariums/whale exhibits just in Britain and now there is zero. At the same time there was a total of 10 such venues in Germany and now there only two. Just about every zoo and aquarium in the western hemisphere has phased out dolphins and whales in comparison to how many establishments kept such species 30 years ago...but SeaWorld is still hanging on to its orcas even with public opinion steadily heading in the opposite direction each year. If the breeding ban remains in place then eventually SeaWorld will have to bow to public pressure and phase out its orcas and it seems that will happen at some point in time.
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I totally agree with you and I know we've discussed this particular topic in the past regarding the National Aquarium's dolphin decision. It really is a matter of time before they are phased out entirely.
 
It sounds like some of you think elephants are the next fight. The truth is that is a fight that has been ongoing for the last decade and as far as I can tell, zoos have won for the most part. Notable exceptions are Seattle and Toronto and those losses were due (in my opinion) to city councils having too much say over operational decisions at their zoos.

However, major new elephant exhibits at San Diego and Tucson and especially Los Angeles were challenged by extremists and yet the zoos ultimately won the right to proceed with their plans.

I would remind everyone that several of us on this site who are pro captivity, are anti captive orca because we feel it is logistically impossible to build a tank big enough to meet their needs well. Just because animal extremists are wrong about many things does not mean they are wrong about this one.
 
DavidBrown said:
The LA Times stories indicate that Sea World is spending the money that it had budgeted for Blue World on whatever the new ride(s) is/are (which is unclear as there is concept art for at least 3 different rides floating around).

Whatever Sea World has been trying to communicate has gotten garbled beyond apparently the California "theatrical" orca show (their term) will be transformed into an educational presentation. And there are some new rides coming instead of the big new Blue World orca exhibit.
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It sounds to me as if they'll be re-vamping the show tank instead of simply giving up on expansion or change altogether. Earlier on SeaWorld's Facebook page they announced they will launch a new show focused on the "natural setting, natural environment and also the natural behaviors of the whales.” Also,if you'll notice in this video the slide says it will be re-allocating a *portion* of the Blue World funding,which makes me think something in the same style of Blue World is still planned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhQ7zO3-22I
 
ZooElephantsMan said:
ArizonaDocent I agree, but I don't think the fight for elephants is over yet.
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I don't know that the fight for elephants (or great apes, or all animals in captivity) is over yet, but there does not seem to be any traction outside of the cetaceans (and orcas in particular). As long as zoos exist, there will be some who disagree with the practice of keeping animals in captivity. I just don't believe that ending the display of orcas (if it does eventually come about), even if partly in response to pressure from anti-captivity activists, is something that necessarily starts a slippery slope to the ending of zoos.
 
I believe it is not helpful or illuminating to view what is going on as a "fight," with "winners" and "losers" as though this was a sports event.
The history of zoos/aquariums shows a centuries-long evolution as societies refine their attitudes about nature and captivity in general. North Americans, especially, are today questioning their attitudes and the discussion is on-going. Demonizing those who oppose captivity does not lead to evolutionary thinking. To have a dialogue, one must be open to thinking new thoughts. Zoos have re-thought how they care for elephants. SeaWorld is re-thinking the way it cares for (and displays) orcas. That will continue. Will elephants disappear from zoos? We'll see. Elephants may well disappear from "the wild" first.
 
Zooplantman said:
I believe it is not helpful or illuminating to view what is going on as a "fight," with "winners" and "losers" as though this was a sports event.
The history of zoos/aquariums shows a centuries-long evolution as societies refine their attitudes about nature and captivity in general. North Americans, especially, are today questioning their attitudes and the discussion is on-going. Demonizing those who oppose captivity does not lead to evolutionary thinking. To have a dialogue, one must be open to thinking new thoughts. Zoos have re-thought how they care for elephants. SeaWorld is re-thinking the way it cares for (and displays) orcas. That will continue. Will elephants disappear from zoos? We'll see. Elephants may well disappear from "the wild" first.
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Well said, zooplantman. I use the term "fight" only as other have and had. It's really more of a "debate," and the terrain on which the debate is carried out is changing all the time.

Your use of the term "evolutionary thinking" explains how I see my own attitudes towards captivity - as I have stated in other threads, I used have no strong feelings about orcas in captivity (for or against) and enjoyed visiting Sea World (where I worked for several years), but have found my view has changed over time. I try to keep my mind open to all different points of view, and find that debate (including the often-spirited discussions on these forums) can only be a good thing.
 
Zooplantman said:
I believe it is not helpful or illuminating to view what is going on as a "fight," with "winners" and "losers" as though this was a sports event.
The history of zoos/aquariums shows a centuries-long evolution as societies refine their attitudes about nature and captivity in general. North Americans, especially, are today questioning their attitudes and the discussion is on-going. Demonizing those who oppose captivity does not lead to evolutionary thinking. To have a dialogue, one must be open to thinking new thoughts. Zoos have re-thought how they care for elephants. SeaWorld is re-thinking the way it cares for (and displays) orcas. That will continue. Will elephants disappear from zoos? We'll see. Elephants may well disappear from "the wild" first.
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This is a fair and well thought-out response. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment here.

Problem is, I don't think that the money and organizations behind the anti-captivity crowd see things as such an evolution or give and take. Groups like PETA have one goal and they don't mince words about it. No animal captivity is acceptable to them.

To boot, we live in a time when public sentiment can very effectively overwhelm expert and professional opinion. It won't matter who's side the facts are on if another Blackfish-type of vehicle can be produced with the goal of eliciting outrage. Some call it authentic democracy, others call it mob rule. It's quite a herd mentality.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't see the anti-captivity crew dealing in measured viewpoints or responses.
 
PETA has been saying the same thing for over 35 years.
When we focus entirely on the zealots they get to control the conversation. It is not they who really matter, nor Zoochatters: it is the Great Middle. As long as zoos and aquariums act true to their mission, adjust their practices as new research teaches us more about animal care, the public will continue to support our facilities and our vision.

Case in point: when Dallas Zoo decided not to ship Jenny(the elephant) to a "sanctuary" but instead build a large exhibit with a large herd, the zoo became the focus of the anti-zoo hoards. The zoo held to its mission and completed the project, wowing everyone. The anti-zoo zealots disappeared back into the woodwork and were seen by the general public as extremists.

Here's an article about Jenny from 2008:
http://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/dont-forget-jenny/
And here's a recent one:
http://cw33.com/2015/09/25/elephants-from-swaziland-coming-to-dallas-zoo/

Blackfish would not have had the impact it had if the public wasn't already uncomfortable about orca shows and if (in spite of its lies and distortions) wasn't built on some very real issues. Elephants are an entirely different matter and the many new large enclosures with multiple animals have caught the public's attention.

It is this obsession with whose side are you on that threatens the cause of zoos and aquariums, IMO
Forget sides, just do your job
 
groundskeeper24 said:
This is a fair and well thought-out response. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment here.

Problem is, I don't think that the money and organizations behind the anti-captivity crowd see things as such an evolution or give and take. Groups like PETA have one goal and they don't mince words about it. No animal captivity is acceptable to them.

To boot, we live in a time when public sentiment can very effectively overwhelm expert and professional opinion. It won't matter who's side the facts are on if another Blackfish-type of vehicle can be produced with the goal of eliciting outrage. Some call it authentic democracy, others call it mob rule. It's quite a herd mentality.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't see the anti-captivity crew dealing in measured viewpoints or responses.
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Not to put words in zooplantman's mouth, but I think we're referring to an evolution of public opinion, not to any evolution on the part of anti-caps. PETA is not likely to ever change its base opinion - but that doesn't mean that it can (or even could) succeed in changing public sentiment to such an extent.

As to your statements regarding Blackfish and mob rule, I don't think there's a great danger of this scenario coming to pass. No matter how you feel about the opinions contained in Blackfish and it obvious biases, Blackfish could not and would not have had the effects it did unless there was some underlying truth to some of its claims. Blackfish seems to me to be a pretty singular situation - I don't see how such a compelling documentary could be assembled to challenge, for example, the captive management of elephants or great apes.
 
Batto said:
How SeaWorld CEO Joel Manby Is Trying to Save the Park From Itself
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I think the park needs saving from Manby... I know he claims he's trying his hardest but at this point he's mostly just rolling over and conceding defeat while making rides (which is evidenced by SeaWorld's complete lack of response towards the new bill specifically targeted exclusively at their company). In fact in a recent article I read he claimed SeaWorld needed to strike a higher balance of rides rather than animals. Not to ignore the fact he was handed a sinking ship anyways,the tank renovations he gave up on should have happened over a decade ago... Looking toward the future,what will happen if (or more likely when) SeaWorld goes bankrupt. It's not like anyone in the U.S. can take in 29 orcas. Any ideas how that'd go down?
 
Shellheart said:
I think the park needs saving from Manby... I know he claims he's trying his hardest but at this point he's mostly just rolling over and conceding defeat while making rides (which is evidenced by SeaWorld's complete lack of response towards the new bill specifically targeted exclusively at their company). In fact in a recent article I read he claimed SeaWorld needed to strike a higher balance of rides rather than animals. Not to ignore the fact he was handed a sinking ship anyways,the tank renovations he gave up on should have happened over a decade ago... Looking toward the future,what will happen if (or more likely when) SeaWorld goes bankrupt. It's not like anyone in the U.S. can take in 29 orcas. Any ideas how that'd go down?
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They will be euthanised, and that will be perversely depicted as the final vindication of the campaign to bring down SeaWorld.
 
CGSwans said:
They will be euthanised, and that will be perversely depicted as the final vindication of the campaign to bring down SeaWorld.
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I don't know if you're joking or not,it's far too late for me to fully register sarcasm,but if you are,I'm going to assume that's simply not possible. The NOAA is the governing body of marine mammals and cetaceans in this country and nothing occurs without their consent. If anything I could see them overtaking the facilities. In my dreams,my distant,nigh-on impossible dreams,a new company headed by somebody competent like Grey Stafford could take over and immediately remodeling the dated facilities and turn the tide of public opinion instead of rolling over as a lapdog to the Humane Society of the United States and doing what they want to help achieve their anti-captivity propaganda,buuut again,those are dreams.
 
Shellheart said:
I don't know if you're joking or not,it's far too late for me to fully register sarcasm,but if you are,I'm going to assume that's simply not possible. The NOAA is the governing body of marine mammals and cetaceans in this country and nothing occurs without their consent. If anything I could see them overtaking the facilities. In my dreams,my distant,nigh-on impossible dreams,a new company headed by somebody competent like Grey Stafford could take over and immediately remodeling the dated facilities and turn the tide of public opinion instead of rolling over as a lapdog to the Humane Society of the United States and doing what they want to help achieve their anti-captivity propaganda,buuut again,those are dreams.
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I totally agree with you.
 
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