Reptilarium, schematic!

Batto said:
Another example of a good "box" setting.

With all due respect: despite his self-proclaimed "expert" title, said "animal_expert01" has acknowledged previous errors of his judgement, mainly based on his still youthful age...;)
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These are small terraria, I would use them only for temporary keeping of reptiles (like in quarantine), or for long-term keeping of very small reptiles like small lizards or baby tortoises.

I don't know the age of animal_expert01 but think that many zoochatters will have divided opinion on what is better - more rational row arrangement of enclosures, mainly box-style, or more spatial distribution of enclosures with a lot of ''unused'' space between them, with irregular boundaries.
 
These are certainly no "small" terraria, and they are well suited for the long-term husbandry of the species currently kept within. You would know this if you had ever actually kept any of them...

Having an individual opinion is alright; the actual expertise and the practical outcome of that opinion, however, separates the wheat from the chaff.
 
Nikola Chavkosk said:
These are small terraria, I would use them only for temporary keeping of reptiles (like in quarantine), or for long-term keeping of very small reptiles like small lizards or baby tortoises.

I don't know the age of animal_expert01 but think that many zoochatters will have divided opinion on what is better - more rational row arrangement of enclosures, mainly box-style, or more spatial distribution of enclosures with a lot of ''unused'' space between them, with irregular boundaries.
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I agree with Batto on this one, the box style can cause the reptiles to be cramped. Try to have space between the enclosures, with the enclosures occupying each half, to let them have more space. And I would prefer the enclosure to be a bit far away, for example, where the visitors walk in zip-zag style, not just let them get tired walking across each enclosure, then doing the other side.
 
Batto said:
These are certainly no "small" terraria, and they are well suited for the long-term husbandry of the species currently kept within. You would know this if you had ever actually kept any of them...
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Maybe Batto, but certainly don't fit best as for a (serious) zoo, more like for private keeper/breeder, venom colector, pet owner or for experimental/research purposes?

What species are held in these terraria?
 
Unlike your pipe dreams, these terraria ARE part of a serious (sic) approved European zoo with special focus on the husbandry of venomous snakes.

Since you were so quick to dismiss these terraria as "small", I expected you to know the species in question?

@lowland anoa: you're sure you're agreeing with me? ;)
The spatial organization of exhibits is strongly associated with the structural conditions at hand...
 
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Batto said:
Unlike your pipedreams, these terraria ARE part of a serious (sic) approved European zoo with special focus on the husbandry of venomous snakes.

Since you were so quick to dismiss these terraria as "small", I expected you to know the species in question?
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Regardless on what institution they belong, they are small, and offer limited or no possibilities for a living animal (either that beeing snake) to explore. Here for example one elapid can't stretch in it's entire lenght, let alone to creep several metres, fast. And I think these husbandry practices will change in near future, as there is already ongoing debates (you surely know that better than me) whether reptiles enclosures in zoos needs to be bigger and whether reptiles needs more behavioral enrichment, and that they are not just passive creatures sitting (''resting'') in one place for days. Elapids needs runing (creeping), exploring different smells via their tongues in a more spacious enclosure, needs hanging on trees, etc. You can't neglect that bigger enclosure is better for snakes.
 
Nikola Chavkosk said:
(...) they are small, and offer limited or no possibilities for a living animal (either that beeing snake) to explore.
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I strongly disagree. Unlike you, I've been there in person to judge the size of the tanks correctly. And unlike you, I know the snakes kept (and bred) within these tanks.

Nikola Chavkosk said:
Here for example one elapid can't stretch in it's entire lenght, let alone to creep several metres, fast.
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One of the tanks actually contains a rare elapid species. And guess what-it has ample space, and takes advantage of that (whenever it feels like it).
These terraria have all been well approved by local authorities based on strict (some might even argue too strict...) national guidelines regulating reptile husbandry standards. The snakes are offered adequate and animal-specific enrichment by the continuous offer of new husbandry elements (such as new leaves, branches, moss etc.), brought in freshly and officially from a local national park. All that is probably way more than the snakes in the Brazilian husbandry you praised a few pages ago can ever hope for.
"Big" or rather "large" is a very subjective and dubious term when it comes to the evaluation of the quality of a husbandry-and is influenced by many factors, among others, its structural elements, or rather, their lack of.

But since you've already acquired ample expertise about practical reptile husbandry via googling pictures and building internet castles in the sky, you may forgive me my imprudence for ever bothering you with such inferior pictures or practical references.
 
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Batto said:
I strongly disagree. Unlike you, I've been there in person to judge the size of the tanks correctly. And unlike you, I know the snakes kept (and bred) within these tanks.

One of the tanks actually contains a rare elapid species. And guess what-it has ample of space, and takes advantage of that (whenever it feels like it).
These terraria have all been well approved by local authorities based on strict (some might even argue too strict...) national guidelines regulating reptile husbandry standards.
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I am sorry if you are offended in some way Batto, because I called them small, but that's mine opinion. I uploaded pictures from reptiles in Tierpark Hellabrunn today in the gallery, that I have photographed (photos taken last November), and they (terraria) are bigger than those in picture you have provided. Yet, they should be even bigger in my opinion (as you said without experience in captive keeping of reptiles (aside from native tortoises and turtles in home-made terrarium/aqarium), but I have read a lot).
I am wondering and want to know, wich species is that rare elapid ...:rolleyes: Samar cobra? Tiger snake?


Batto said:
All that is probably way more than the snakes in the Brazilian husbandry you praised a few pages ago can ever hope for.
"Big" or rather "large" is a very subjective and dubious term when it comes to the evaluation of the quality of a husbandry-and is influenced by many factors, among others, its structural elements, or rather, their lack of.
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I praised them because they amazed me by their size first of all and seemingly vivid snakes (atlhough that can mean stressed snake, as you wrote), and don't went into a deeper analysis of actual conditions in regards to plants/furniture, pools in them, substrate, etc.
 
It's funny that you should mention Tierpark Hellabrunn (well, since this is the only Central European zoo you've visited so far, I shouldn't be surprised that you try to use it as your personal gold standard). I happen to know that zoo quite well, and the zookeeper taking care of the venomous snakes is a friend of mine. Based on this, I can assure you that the enclosures in the picture are at least as large, if not larger than the venomous snake enclosures at Hellabrunn-and actually safer to operate. Well, looks can be deceiving...

Ah, the elapid in question is such a rarely kept species that this is one of only two husbandries in Europe. But since you prefer to be so self-opinionated today, I might tantalize you for a little while and keep its identification to myself...^^
 
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Batto said:
It's funny that you mention Tierpark Hellabrunn (well, since this is the only Central European zoo you've visited so far, I shouldn't be surprised that you try to use it as your personal gold standard).

Ah, the elapid in question is such a rarely kept species that this is one of only two husbandries in Europe. But since you prefer to be so self-opinionated today, I might tantalize you for a little while and keep its identification to myself...^^
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Unfortunately, it is not just the only Central European zoo I've visited, but also the only non-Balkan zoo that I have visited so far. I am not taking it as gold standard, I've just liked to make comparassion. The zoo disapointed me to a lesser degree to what I have expected.

You may think that I am very stuborn, self-opinioned, and maybe naive, but actually I am just human beeing struggling a lot to find his own path (apart from Zoochat) and love to debate a lot :o

I will ask you in near future for the rare elapid...maybe in some post.
 
...which won’t be less inhospitable if you choose to be stuborn, self-opinioned, and maybe naive...^^
 
Batto said:
...which won’t be less inhospitable if you choose to be stuborn, self-opinioned, and maybe naive...^^
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Sometimes you can't take complete control over personality traits; they are congenital and astrology-based. Yet I am not self-opinioned, yes I am stuborn but not as I look. Naive - sometimes.
You Batto from Germany? :p
 
Nikola Chavkosk said:
Maybe Batto, but certainly don't fit best as for a (serious) zoo, more like for private keeper/breeder, venom colector, pet owner or for experimental/research purposes?

What species are held in these terraria?
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Where does this logic come from? The stars? :p Since you're a "self-proclaimed expert" on googling, judging from pictures, etc. How do you come to such conclusions? You have no experience in keeping reptiles and you can't even ID any taxa without asking? Then again, did you did steal a photo and post it in the gallery for "fun". You can't read information and make such assumptions as you have, about your reptilarium, species, or anything. You need real experience. Preferably with safer species. Get some Correlophus and take them to the max' potential. Maybe, once you become rich and gain experience, you can afford to take venomous handling classes, maybe even get licensed or permits. I doubt it. Takes many hours to do, and that will take away from your "star gazing". :p
 
Gulo gulo said:
Where does this logic come from? The stars? :p Since you're a "self-proclaimed expert" on googling, judging from pictures, etc. How do you come to such conclusions? You have no experience in keeping reptiles and you can't even ID any taxa without asking? Then again, did you did steal a photo and post it in the gallery for "fun". You can't read information and make such assumptions as you have, about your reptilarium, species, or anything. You need real experience. Preferably with safer species. Get some Correlophus and take them to the max' potential. Maybe, once you become rich and gain experience, you can afford to take venomous handling classes, maybe even get licensed or permits. I doubt it. Takes many hours to do, and that will take away from your "star gazing". :p
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I am not self-proclaimed expert, from where did you read that? I clearly wrote that it's just my opinion (after all we have studied something at college?). Logic? - normaly bigger enclosures are better. I don't had intention to steal photo, I just downloaded and posted it (don't knew it that, such thing is forbidden on Zoochat, apparently). Actualy I had a practice of 30 days in local zoo, Skopje zoo, who is holding several reptiles, but not venomous snakes. You have to be J - judging personality according to MBTI-clasification, see there are 16 types. Contrary to Judging is perception. I am ENTJ or ENTP (from several testings on net) :p
 
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antonmuster said:

piano wire vivarium




open-topped vivaria in richly planted vivarium building
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Sorry antonmuster, some of the enclosures you have provided with pictures I liked a lot, like that open-toped with a lot of vegetation for rhinoceros iguanas, or those bigger one like that mixed exhibit for chameleons and termiter, and Etosha enclosure, and for beeaters. I just didn't liked a lot the spatial distribution of enclosures, wasting more space.
 
Nikola Chavkosk said:
Sorry antonmuster, some of the enclosures you have provided with pictures I liked a lot, like that open-toped with a lot of vegetation for rhinoceros iguanas, or those bigger one like that mixed exhibit for chameleons and termiter, and Etosha enclosure, and for beeaters. I just didn't liked a lot the spatial distribution of enclosures, wasting more space.
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The delegation of space for visitor experience is very important. Visitors will soon grow tired of a display if it only offers exhibit after exhibit after exhibit. In outdoor complexes for (for example) large mammals, there will often be space between two large exhibits, that is normally filled by a scenic pond, foliage, or the like. This is referred to as "green space" and is important in preserving a good experience for your visitors. The same concept would apply (though on a lesser and differentiated scale) to a reptile house, or any indoor exhibit, really. It may not be plants but something to break up the monotony is healthy. Behind the scenes, in a strict breeding operation, the only people who will see the area would be staff, so this wouldn't be necessary.
 
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