Not in defense either but compared to other establishments of the era how did this place measure up? bearing in mind that animal husbandry has come on leaps and bounds since this and other zoos of the time were in operation.
Have you seen the videos used in the trial? I'm not being funny and just defending circuses but how they were used as evidence I don't know, you can't even see it's Mary Chipperfield as there's no face shown. She doesn't even shout at the chimp, "she just says "come on girl, get inside"".
Possibly, but they're on the ADI website. We studied them in college and said how, whilst they were obviously making a point about the elephant ones then there's not enough evidence in the chimp video to prove anything.
Not in defense either but compared to other establishments of the era how did this place measure up? bearing in mind that animal husbandry has come on leaps and bounds since this and other zoos of the time were in operation.
Having shown this photo to someone who visited Southampton as a child, she noted that what you see in the photo was basically all the elephant had, and was the same case for other large animals in the collection, which included polar bears, chimps and big cats.
On the Mary Chipperfield, I too will need to see these photos. But I'm not going to change my opinion without any hard evidence against the allegations. I wouldn't be suprised if they are true, one thing I noticed in the big cat show at Heythrop was that the big cats seemed to react fearfully to Mr Clubb's actions, and whilst I have no idea how he trains them nor am I making any allegations, I can imagine there being few viable ways to get animals like these to perform the elaborate tricks for the circus audience.
one thing I noticed in the big cat show at Heythrop was that the big cats seemed to react fearfully to Mr Clubb's actions, and whilst I have no idea how he trains them nor am I making any allegations, I can imagine there being few viable ways to get animals like these to perform the elaborate tricks for the circus audience.
The cats looked fearfull during Jim`s act on the Heythrop open days,I`ve got to question if you saw the same act as myself and many others that were there,because if those cats didn`t want to do the act they wouldn`t have,and Jim wouldn`t have forced them to do so,I know I`ve seen it happen on other visits to Heythrop!As for animals performing elaborate tricks I remember seeing a dog dancing on its back legs at Cruffs now how did the owner I would guess by using very similar ways to how Jim trains his cats,the question is do you consider that to be wrong as well?
I saw the first show on the Saturday of their open weekend this year, as you ask. But it was the fact that as they performed they showed signs of what I saw as waryness: Vocal threats, ears pulled backwards, hunched backs, etc. Perhaps there was a particular reason why they did not refuse to perform, and I can't comment on what may or may not occur behind closed doors. But to me, I could see that the cats were not performing out of enjoyment.
Dogs have a balance of great trust for their owners that has become instinct after generations of domestication as they have accepted themselves into a pack hireachy with humans: Even the most aggressive dog will generally show respect for his 'alpha' male or female. Therefore, performing 'tricks' is a much more acceptable practice for a dog to realise if it sees that this what the owners, who it regards as fellow pack members, wish it to do. Training still takes a while, but it is accepted more easilly by the dog. I have a labrador retriever myself, and that is where I have based my observations from.
A tiger on the otherhand is another kettle of catnip. They are not social creatures, nor are they naturally domesticated; their instinct is to regard humans as another animal that may be around it's territory, and a potential alternate food source if the usual stock is low. Even with hand raised animals, the keeper will be more likely to leave it when it reaches a certain age and indepedency becomes more defined. Therefore, training would be very difficult, and I just wonder how you can get an animal to go against it's instincts to make the sort of display you see in a circus.
I think you'll find the faces they were pulling were aggression, not fear. They're trained to do that as film companies often want them to look aggressive. Notice how they didn't do it on the podiums, only when they were instructed to do something. I've seen the non-show training with no music and let me tell you that there's nothing negative about it as some would believe (or want to believe).
@ Zambar Having read your reply you seem to think its ok to train a dog to do something thats not natural but you cannot except that people can do the same with something like a Tiger which to me smacks of double standards.Like Ash I have also seen training done at Heythrop away from the public gaze and no cruelty or negative re-inforcement is used to train the animals at all.
At least someone can back me up lol. IMO if you don't agree with circus then you shouldn't agree with any form of animal training, yet most anti circus folk have a dog that can roll over on command.
