Wow - good to know Bongo's still with us! Didn't know Matadi moved to Paignton, so thanks for that scoop. It was Mamfe that Biddy and Bongo (and Eva) were in with, I believe. Joe was housed alone (and like Gorilla Haven's Joe, he was a real fun character too) and both those males died, with Ti, so I think I lost track after that run of sadness.
But back to Asante, I don't know either Oumbie or Boulas as silverbacks (knew them as tiny lads), so hopefully she'll figure it out one day.
As for breeding, I'm pretty sure she's never had a baby, but my question was, has she been "doing the deed" at least, with males in the past??
Asante has never had a baby. The answer to your question is almost certainly No. She didn't mate with Ti as they grew up together so he wasn't interested. She was also sent to Bristol Zoo on a short term breeding loan many years back but she never really had time to settle there and again I'm almost certain she never mated with either of the males there.
The worst problems arose recently when the new silverback Oumbie arrived. Being very humanised (more so than I'd realised before, I think) she couldn't adapt to him- he'd also been a bachelor male for 10(!) years at PL and wasn't used to females at all which didn't help, so she became very stressed and lost a lot of weight very quickly. So she's recently been moved into the older house and has/or soon will be, added to that group to see if she can get along better with Boulas. He's definately more placid than Oumbie and they were able to mix him with the two older females(Biddy & Bongo) just a couple of days after his arrival from Belfast. He had lived with a female group there which no doubt made it much easier than Oumbie's situation.
I think its unlikely Asante can be induced to breed, even if she will live with Boulas okay. Of course I hope I'm wrong there as genetically she is an important female to breed from, being the only offspring/relative of wildcaught female 'Eva'.
And a question by return- are you expecting any more Gorillas at Gorilla Haven in the near future?
Yes, I saw Asante in Bristol, but at that time things were pretty dubious there (Jeremiah was alone, Daniel wasn't much of a candidate, Diana and her baby were the stars, etc) ...
I'm surprised Oumbie is such a pill. Boulas was a problem in Belfast, I seem to recall - maybe it's just the age and he'll grow out of it. But that won't help Asante. Europe gives groups to younger silverbacks than we do in the USA ... Nice to know Boulas has mellowed - at one point we were asked to take him at GH, but we couldn't ...
GH's future looks quite dim, I'm afraid. We're out of money and zoos refuse to help pay, so once Joe passes from Gorilla Haven to Gorilla Heaven that could be the end. I think History will show zoos really missed the boat on the potential of GH. My world is imploding now, but I'll figure out a way to regroup and come back stronger than ever. It ain't great being me these days. ;-(
GH's future looks quite dim, I'm afraid. We're out of money and zoos refuse to help pay, so once Joe passes from Gorilla Haven to Gorilla Heaven that could be the end. I think History will show zoos really missed the boat on the potential of GH. My world is imploding now, but I'll figure out a way to regroup and come back stronger than ever. It ain't great being me these days. ;-(
That is such a shame, I have been following the site and updates for a few years now and wished you all best for the future.
I hope you can make something work in the future as I see a huge potential for private facilities like this to provide additional room for breeding programs (Not just for Gorillas).
Shame that no one else could see this potential and all the functions such a facility could carry out for the greater good of zoos and the breeding programs they particapate in.
I'm surprised Oumbie is such a pill. Boulas was a problem in Belfast, I seem to recall - maybe it's just the age and he'll grow out of it. But that won't help Asante. Europe gives groups to younger silverbacks than we do in the USA ... Nice to know Boulas has mellowed - at one point we were asked to take him at GH, but we couldn't ...
Boulas has definately mellowed. He really is pretty calm now. I know he used to be a bully in his younger days at Port Lympne but I think age does change (usually) them for the better, the older they are the calmer and more placid they become. Oumbie is 17 so he is mature too but I think having lived so long with just males(or one other male) at PL has made getting him on good terms with females again more of a problem. They have had him on tranquilisiers but I hear he is improving generally. He does mate with Ozala but with no result so far.
Asante, sadly, I think is a lost cause unless they could suceeed with AI, but its success rate is so low. Who knows?
Really sorry to hear the latest GH news. It seems riduculous to me that with so many surplus males around the US zoos, some of them in less than ideal situations, that at least a few of them aren't reaching your excellent facility. Hope things may pick up for you though.
Re: GH: Well, the economy isn't helping ... zoos don't have $ to help pay and think it's fine to keep gorillas and other animals off display in less than ideal situations that the general public never knows about. They'd love to use GH as a dumping ground for the Ape TAG, with every type of primate imaginable, but we weren't designed or meant for that ...
I think it's ridiculous to get a rambunctious 17 year old male to lead a breeding group so fast ... he hasn't had a chance to mature yet ... putting him on drugs to calm him isn't the answer either, IMHO. Boulas was in an all male group too, and while that could be a factor, I think it's more the immaturity of the silverback that's the problem here. Oumbie was mother/group raised and should be fine, once the "testosterone poisoning" has a chance to settle down a bit.
Hopefully now that the EEP and SSP are starting to talk to each other more, there can be some agreement or consensus on when to let males have breeding groups, since it seems too many problems like Asante/Oumbie occur, which is a HUMAN caused problem, not a problem of Asante or Oumbie's doing.
I was in Germany and Holland in December and was amazed at how many young males have groups - Bokito in R'dam, Ivo in Berlin, etc. I wonder how we're changing things by having this young guys teaching next generations what they themselves never learned from mature silverbacks about family life. Just my 2 bits, which ain't worth much in this economy!
Maybe now that the EEP and SSP are starting to talk to each other more, there can be some agreement or consensus on when to let males have breeding groups,...
I was in Germany and Holland in December and was amazed at how many young males have groups - Bokito in R'dam, Ivo in Berlin, etc.
I know that some years back there was a recommendation by the EEP that 'young males shouldn't be used as group leaders' However I think that was targeted specifically at Blackbacks rather than Silverbacks of younger years. And even Apenheul (the EEP SB holders)themselves replaced their old silverback 'Bongo' with a very young & inexperienced one- Jambo who was typically aggressive to the females to start with.
I think what's happening in Europe(at least) is that there is now a shortage of mature silverbacks apart from a few nonsocialised ones no one wants to risk taking on for a group, and so now its become the accepted norm to bring in whatever males are available from bachelor groups- most of them are far younger than Oumbi. Blackpool's new male is only 13 or so (he recently became a father) Wuppertal had 14yr old Vimoto and London 12 yr old Yeboah (who died), both from the La Boissiere male group.
I don't think it is good practise as these males probably wouldn't be old or experienced enough to take over a group in the wild. However, in most cases now there doesn't seem much alternative when a new male is needed.
BTW we could really do with a few totally unrelated males from the US population as its increasingly hard to find European-bred males for groups that are totally unrelated to the female lines, as was the case of ZSL 'Yeboah'.
Sometimes they get lucky - I was in Wuppertal a few days after Vimoto arrived and was in the group - except for Grace (another "Asante") who was off by herself, the group looked like it had been together for years. I also got to see Jambo (even tho Apenheul was closed for the season), who has settled in nicely, after a tricky start ...
Besides the obvious cost and logistics, I wonder why more transfers don't occur between the US and Europe. It's hard enough with Mexico/Brasil. But it would be good to mix the genes up even more, altho I believe both populations are self-sustaining ...
The Founders are dying off and mature males are as rare as females for social groups. It doesn't help we're mucking up more gorillas by not being able to socialize them properly. And Europe seems to still be on the baby-making train, whereas here we're not breeding, except for a few cases ...
Every situation is different as you say,- sometimes it works really easily, as in the Wuppertal case with Vimoto, wheras in others, like Twycross at present, its not working so easily. I know 'Jambo' at Apenheul is fine and settled now, but initially he had to fight his way up by being aggressive with some of the much older dominant females, wheras a more mature silverback could probably have taken over more easily as he would have earned their respect quickly. But I haven't heard any mention being made about the importance of trying to use any remaining suitable mature males. I know there is one 'good' (mother-raised) male in the Loro Parc male group- Mayaabu- but they have requested him not to be moved because he stabilises their male group. So he's not getting the chance to contribute anywhere else. Most of the other bachelors in European groups(apart from the Loro Parc and Port Lympne groups) are now not even full silverbacks, or like Mike and Nyuki at La Palmyre, nobody wants to risk trying to use them because they've got bad backgrounds(not their fault, obviously- its the circumstances they've been kept under.)
If my memory serves me correctly, the last Gorilla to travel from the US to Europe- was G.Anne.(to Jersey) and that was about twenty five years ago.. Very few have gone the other way either.
