Dear fanaloka, I look forward to our forthcoming debate, (it is late here in Sweden as well...
One of the reasons that I look forward to our debate is the fact that neither you nor me are fluent in English, but we are both passionate about our views and I believe our debate will be very interesting one and we will be debating on equal terms, so to speak.
You will "forgive" my poor English and I will "forgive" your poor English, OK?
Keeping Mice and rats in this tiny structureless cages-they are not bigger than it appears on that picture,ashley-h, and they ar not fine for mice also,I've seen this cages more than once, has nothing to do, if Dan and Me are vegans or vegetarians. Eating meat is another discussion.
And no, I don't argument emotional, but I know how to keep mice and rats, and this cages are not the way to keep this both species.
Especially rats need a lot of space for their natural behavoiur, and in this cages, they don't have any chance to live a normal rat life.
I think the argument for meat eating was that animals bred for meat often aren't kept in better conditions than these rats, could be wrong about that though. And I've worked with this exact type of cage, the photo makes it look like it's just the small bit with the mesh, when in actual fact the whole cage is about 1 square foot. I think it's a perfectly acceptable cage to keep mice in.
Last post before I go to sleep - whether I and Zebraduiker are vegans/vegetarians or not is totally irrelevant to the issues raised in this thread.
As it happens, I eat meat every day, and I am ashamed of this fact for several reasons... but that is a debate for another thread... right now: let´s deal with the rats in the small, plastic containers!
I agree with Dan. Because all this cages are the same size in europe, I know they are much smaller than 1 sm, and why this box should be good enough fr mice ? Only they are smaller in bodysize ? But they have almost the same needs as like as rats....
Dear Dan, Dear Zebraduiker !!
And Dear All Others interetsed in this subject !!
I am a veterinary surgeon with more then 30 years experience in this field. I was working as a vet with large, farm animals (cattle, pigs, horses), with fur animals (foxes, minks, etc.) and with small, pet animals as well. Later I was working as a general manager of a small zoo. And now, since many years I am working with laboratory animals. I am writing this very short CV not to convince you that my arguments are more valid or more important then yours. That’s not the point. I wrote this to assure you that my knowledge in this matter came not only from books and articles I read, but from my own, daily experience.
The science of laboratory animal keeping, breeding, their welfare and/or welbeing, including also many important aspects of the tests and experiments on animals and problem of euthanasia are currently the best monitored and best controlled part of human-animal relations in the world. All over the world regulations and law related to this subject are very restrictive. There are many thick books on all those subjects. So please do not be surprised that I can not (actually I will not even try to !!) explain you everything in such a short note.
On the other hand it seems to me that you are a little bit lazy. I already gave you some advices how you should try to find more information on this subject. Really if you want to have a broader point of view you should get a little bit more knowledge on this subject. Then perhaps you will stop to use a word “hate” ! Honestly speaking I hate when someone use the word “hate”. (LOL)
Because all this debate started from that one particular photo I will repeat here. When you see on this photo rats in the cage – this means that this is cage for rats !! If you see 2 adult rats and newly born, naked babies - this means that this is a breeding cage for rats. What I want to say is that there are many different types of cages: for mice, for rats, for hamsters, for guinea pigs, for rabbits etc. What more the cages for breeding are quite different from the regular one. There are special charts and graphs according to which the size of the cage is chosen. And it depends not only on which species will be kept there but also the weight of the paricular animal. Well, for example in the same cage you can keep 5 rats until their weight is less then 100g each, but only 2 if they are over 250g. Additionaly the room where laboratory animals are kept should have full monitoring equipment, temperature controll, humidity control, preferably air condition etc. Also light control 12 hours day – 12 hours night. Well, ok – this is all on this subject. All these rules apply as well to such facility as that one in Rostock Zoo!!
Vegans or vegetarians? I asked this provocative and perverse question intentionally ! And please do not tell me that it is a subjcet for another thread. I do not agree with you. This is exactly the same subject. Because I am convinced that we are talking about how human beings are treating animals in general. And this is exactly the same problem. Of course we are not keeping rats neither mice for food. But what about rabbits? The requirements (eg. size of the cage) for rabbits kept for food are exactly the same as for rabbits used in laboratory. It is not true that animals we are keeping for food have far better conditions then those in laboratories. It is rather contrary – the pigs in laboratories are living in better conditions then those in pig farms.
And for the end few more provocative questions !! Have you ever seen chicken farm? Have you ever seen so called factory of laying hens – the industrial production of eggs? Have you ever been to slaughter-house ?
You do not deal with my arguments, fanaloka. You have not answered the two questions that I put to you, after you invited me to ask questions.
In this post I will quote you on a number of points and give my comments:
Fanaloka wrote:
There may not be any "valid moral, ethical or philosophical arguments" for laboratory animal keeping, test on animals, pig farms, chicken farms etc. etc. - but it is one very important argument ECONOMICAL one.
So I am right, after all? The way we humans treat animals in laboratories, pig farms etc is undefendable? In fact, we could stop right here, since you admit that you don´t have any counter-argument to my argument. But let´s go on, anyway.
On the other hand it seems to me that you are a little bit lazy. I already gave you some advices how you should try to find more information on this subject.
Whether I am "lazy" or not is irrelevant to the discussion.
Why would I need more information on the subject? I have early in this discussion pointed out that I do not doubt that what we see in the picture is in compliance with whatever law and regulation you care to mention. This has never been questioned, yet you keep returning to the matter.
What I and Zebraduiker have argued, is that what we see in the picture are two animals living under obviously terrible conditions. We have presented reasons for why this is the case. You have not responded.
I have presented a theory as to why it is accepted by most people to torment animals the way we see here. You have not responded.
Vegans or vegetarians? I asked this provocative and perverse question intentionally ! And please do not tell me that it is a subjcet for another thread. I do not agree with you. This is exactly the same subject. Because I am convinced that we are talking about how human beings are treating animals in general. And this is exactly the same problem. Of course we are not keeping rats neither mice for food. But what about rabbits? The requirements (eg. size of the cage) for rabbits kept for food are exactly the same as for rabbits used in laboratory. It is not true that animals we are keeping for food have far better conditions then those in laboratories. It is rather contrary – the pigs in laboratories are living in better conditions then those in pig farms.
This is beside the point in the sense that neither I nor Zebraduiker have argued against what you write here. We have argued about what we see in your picture. We have put forward a number of reasons as to why we disapprove of what we see. You have not responded to these arguments.
And for the end few more provocative questions !! Have you ever seen chicken farm? Have you ever seen so called factory of laying hens – the industrial production of eggs? Have you ever been to slaughter-house ?
Irrelevant for the same reason as above, but since you ask I will answer.
I have only seen "idyllic" chicken farms with free ranging birds and this was in the 1960s.
I have not with my own eyes seen the industrial production of eggs, but I have of course read a lot, seen a lot on tv and the internet.
I worked in a slaughterhouse three summers in a row, between 1985 and 1987.
Well DAN, in my opinion you did not present any rational arguments - just only your feelings. Very similar situation already happened between us in the debate "what is art and what isn't". Apparently we do have very different points of views for many aspects of our daily life. But such is the world - we all are different.
As you insist to answer your two questions I am doing it right now.
1. What are the measurements of these plastic containers? - in this particular example the floor surface of this polypropylene cage should be between 300 and 350 sq.cm. with the min. height 20cm.
2. The metal bar construction, that makes the volume of this small plastic container even smaller - what is its function and could it have been designed in another way so as not to have this effect? - the wire lids are all made of steinless steel and all have so called U-shaped feed hopper with additional removable divider. The bigger part is used to put a pellets while in the second is the bottle with the water. The second part of the wire lids in most instances is flat. But there are also wire semi-raised or fully raised lids which in result are giving 7 to 10cm higher cage (so 20cm + 7 or 20 cm +10).
Hope this helps, unless you can not understand my not so fluent English (LOL).
