A discussion on the AZA and sustainability

ThylacineAlive

Well-Known Member
10+ year member
Moderator note: topic split from this thread: Rosamond Gifford Zoo [Rosamond Gifford Zoo]


Once more, this exposes the flaws in the over arching AZA policies in endangered species vis a vis zoo spaces management within its ranks which at times and disproportionally affects the interests of some of the most (critically) endangered species.

IMO AZA is also caving in to some ill-informed vet health regulations that are pandering to big agri business with little concern for animal welfare, good management of zoonotics and endangered species and wildlife in general.

In the case of deer and antelope species this has for sure led to a contentious reduction in the number of species of conservation concern in AZA zoos, the white-lipped deer are just one of the examples of this flawed policy.

The AZA continuously failed over the past two decades in their mission to build sustainable zoo populations and conserve endangered species. With each redefinition of the "Species Survival Plan" (SSP) model, more and more species have found themselves excluded, unadvertised, disenfranchised, and ultimately ignored/forgotten. It effects all reaches of Animalia, but most notably in recent years North American primate and hoofstock populations have taken a massive blow.

There are a growing number of curators and even zoo directors out there in AZA zoos that are simply not interested in working with or promoting any species that is not an SSP or otherwise AZA-sponsored. Combine that with the fact that the AZA redefined the SSP program for, what, a third time to narrow the qualifications to already popular and well-established species (increasing the qualifying minimum number of holding institutions from 3 to 15). It's an absolute disaster.

But considering the fact that Dan Ashe, CEO and President of the AZA since 2016, simply does not care about nor does he think zoos require biodiversity in their collections, and it's no surprise that the situation is getting worse and worse. I remember back in 2018, I met one of the head hoofstock keepers at the LA Zoo. She described putting Dan Ashe in charge of the AZA was like handing the keys over to the 'enemy'. I was optimistic that she was exaggerating and that zoos like LA, the San Diegos, Bronx, etc. would continue pioneering for lesser represented yet highly endangered wildlife. Sadly, it seems I underestimated just how much Dan Ashe simply does not care about the animal aspect of zoos (an increasing and extremely worrying trend across zoo leadership in both North America and Europe) and I underestimated just how many zoo folk would simply give up. What does it say about the state of modern AZA zoos when management--most, if not all of which have zero animal keeping experience--force individuals such as Steve Metzler (formerly SDZSP) out of the AZA entirely for refusing to not phase-out taxa the AZA does not want to promote.

The modern AZA does not concern itself with preserving endangered species when it's hard, it concerns itself with preserving whatever populations are already large and healthy because that's good publicity. The modern AZA does not concern itself with good taxonomy, it concerns itself with whatever cross-breeding looks good for their genetics metrics.

The Brazilian government entrusted us with endangered Brazilian Ocelots, but today the studbook recommends cross-breeding with generic and South Texas cats because "genetic diversity". The AZA maintains the only captive assurance population of the undescribed Panay Warty Pig (S. cebifrons ssp. nov.), but today the TAG either wants them crossed with Negros Warty Pigs from European zoos or phased-out entirely because "genetic diversity". Transvaal Lions (subspecies krugeri under traditional taxonomy, melanochaita under modern) are now being admixed with a male from Sudan (nubica under traditional taxonomy, leo under IUCN) who has a top breeding priority recommendation because "genetic diversity".

There is, of course, more problems in AZA zoos than simply the "big bad AZA and Mr. Ashe". The aforementioned trend of putting non-zoo and non-animal people in charge of animal collections. Then there's the simple, yet astonishing lack of interest from curatorial staff in working with most species. It's difficult to say how intertwined this lack of interest is with the AZA systematic promotion vs anti-promotion of certain species, though I expect their is a link. How could a hoofstock curator become interested in picking up Gaur or Bactrian Deer when all the information coming from the AZA/TAG is that the populations are small, aging, inbred, and non-viable; meanwhile, the populations of both (each held by 3 holders or less in North America) exceed that in European zoos with regular annual breedings and increasing population trends.

And then there's the resistance to working with private keepers. Being a zoo keeping an animal = good, but a person keeping an animal = bad, even though many keepers and curators are private keepers themselves. This issue has a huge amount of nuance, grey areas, and complications to it, but there seems to be a pretty blanket stance within the zoo leadership community that private keepers have no place in conservation breeding. I wonder where the TSA would be in their chelonian efforts if they did not relay on their large network of private turtle breeders and public zoos. I remember how badly the AZA reacted to Fort Worth sending the last female Anegada Ground Iguanas to Iguanaland. To swing back to the initial topic, the White-Lipped Deer program relied on cooperating with the large population of privately managed deer on Texas ranches, something that today is largely looked down upon.

I don't really see the situation getting any better for US zoos. We're on a fast-track to every AZA zoo keeping the same selection of two dozen mammals, three dozen birds, 10 fish, etc. But that's exactly what the AZA under Dan Ashe wants, he's practically said as much. Remember, biodiversity doesn't matter. A shocking thing to hear come out of the mouth of someone who used to manage the USFWS...

~Thylo
 
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@ThylacineAlive This is the best and boldest thing you've ever written on ZooChat. I agree wholeheartedly with most of your comments and in fact my advice would be to begin a new thread and kick it off with your post. Otherwise, your thoughts will be buried on the Rosamond Gifford Zoo thread and the majority of people on this site won't ever read it.
 
The AZA continuously failed over the past two decades in their mission to build sustainable zoo populations and conserve endangered species. With each redefinition of the "Species Survival Plan" (SSP) model, more and more species have found themselves excluded, unadvertised, disenfranchised, and ultimately ignored/forgotten. It effects all reaches of Animalia, but most notably in recent years North American primate and hoofstock populations have taken a massive blow.

There are a growing number of curators and even zoo directors out there in AZA zoos that are simply not interested in working with or promoting any species that is not an SSP or otherwise AZA-sponsored. Combine that with the fact that the AZA redefined the SSP program for, what, a third time to narrow the qualifications to already popular and well-established species (increasing the qualifying minimum number of holding institutions from 3 to 15). It's an absolute disaster.

But considering the fact that Dan Ashe, CEO and President of the AZA since 2016, simply does not care about nor does he think zoos require biodiversity in their collections, and it's no surprise that the situation is getting worse and worse. I remember back in 2018, I met one of the head hoofstock keepers at the LA Zoo. She described putting Dan Ashe in charge of the AZA was like handing the keys over to the 'enemy'. I was optimistic that she was exaggerating and that zoos like LA, the San Diegos, Bronx, etc. would continue pioneering for lesser represented yet highly endangered wildlife. Sadly, it seems I underestimated just how much Dan Ashe simply does not care about the animal aspect of zoos (an increasing and extremely worrying trend across zoo leadership in both North America and Europe) and I underestimated just how many zoo folk would simply give up. What does it say about the state of modern AZA zoos when management--most, if not all of which have zero animal keeping experience--force individuals such as Steve Metzler (formerly SDZSP) out of the AZA entirely for refusing to not phase-out taxa the AZA does not want to promote.

The modern AZA does not concern itself with preserving endangered species when it's hard, it concerns itself with preserving whatever populations are already large and healthy because that's good publicity. The modern AZA does not concern itself with good taxonomy, it concerns itself with whatever cross-breeding looks good for their genetics metrics.

The Brazilian government entrusted us with endangered Brazilian Ocelots, but today the studbook recommends cross-breeding with generic and South Texas cats because "genetic diversity". The AZA maintains the only captive assurance population of the undescribed Panay Warty Pig (S. cebifrons ssp. nov.), but today the TAG either wants them crossed with Negros Warty Pigs from European zoos or phased-out entirely because "genetic diversity". Transvaal Lions (subspecies krugeri under traditional taxonomy, melanochaita under modern) are now being admixed with a male from Sudan (nubica under traditional taxonomy, leo under IUCN) who has a top breeding priority recommendation because "genetic diversity".

There is, of course, more problems in AZA zoos than simply the "big bad AZA and Mr. Ashe". The aforementioned trend of putting non-zoo and non-animal people in charge of animal collections. Then there's the simple, yet astonishing lack of interest from curatorial staff in working with most species. It's difficult to say how intertwined this lack of interest is with the AZA systematic promotion vs anti-promotion of certain species, though I expect their is a link. How could a hoofstock curator become interested in picking up Gaur or Bactrian Deer when all the information coming from the AZA/TAG is that the populations are small, aging, inbred, and non-viable; meanwhile, the populations of both (each held by 3 holders or less in North America) exceed that in European zoos with regular annual breedings and increasing population trends.

And then there's the resistance to working with private keepers. Being a zoo keeping an animal = good, but a person keeping an animal = bad, even though many keepers and curators are private keepers themselves. This issue has a huge amount of nuance, grey areas, and complications to it, but there seems to be a pretty blanket stance within the zoo leadership community that private keepers have no place in conservation breeding. I wonder where the TSA would be in their chelonian efforts if they did not relay on their large network of private turtle breeders and public zoos. I remember how badly the AZA reacted to Fort Worth sending the last female Anegada Ground Iguanas to Iguanaland. To swing back to the initial topic, the White-Lipped Deer program relied on cooperating with the large population of privately managed deer on Texas ranches, something that today is largely looked down upon.

I don't really see the situation getting any better for US zoos. We're on a fast-track to every AZA zoo keeping the same selection of two dozen mammals, three dozen birds, 10 fish, etc. But that's exactly what the AZA under Dan Ashe wants, he's practically said as much. Remember, biodiversity doesn't matter. A shocking thing to hear come out of the mouth of someone who used to manage the USFWS...

~Thylo

I thought the worse Dan Ashe has done to the AZA would be collaborating with HSUS who once said that “zoos are a fact if life” and that they [HSUS] “urge that zoos act as sanctuaries” for animals from the trade before changing their webpage at the time.

This really begs the question how Dan Ashe got into such a position in the first place? And why has the rest of the community enabled him for the longest time? Call me a tin-foil wearing conspiracy theorist but I assume Ashe is fueled with this passion to end the entire wildlife trade, showing it to those dastardly, ignorant, mustache-twirling villains at the wildlife trade. And we have curators, keepers, and fans thinking that they are exempt from this crusade not knowing that accredited zoos are also a part of the wildlife trade. If people are going to say that this is not appeasement to the ilk of HSUS but altruistic good from the bottom of their hearts, let me tell you, if zoos are willing to self destruct over “being good” , then they may as well just shut down this instant. Nothing ever lasts long with the “power of good” in the real world.

The worst part of all of is that the AZA is aware that its species diversity is decreasing. ZIMS posted a blog post showing how AZA is losing managed species citing AZA’s own director of population management strategy. Having this aired out for a global community to see should be embarrassing for the AZA.

As someone who grew up in a country which is anything but a zoo paradise, I grew up looking up to American zoos wishing to work in one ever since my visit to Bronx. I believed that the AZA’s leadership in the industry could be reflected by the number of species they held, which I thought would increase as animal keeping techniques improved. To see the president of the AZA throw all that away all those animals away like some sort of burden is a huge slap on the face and not fair for other regions in the world who either could use international collaboration expand their programs or regions that are burdened with too many programs to deal on their own (like, for example, the EAZA juggling four leopard programs)

But hey, at least the space left from phased out species can be used for larger enclosures for the same handful of species. Big enclosures focusing on one or two species are good, right? /s

Being a zoo keeping an animal = good, but a person keeping an animal = bad
Slight correction Mr. ~Thylo, it should be “Being an accredited Zoo keeping an animal”. When I used to be concerned over exotic pet laws, I recall seeing many proposals giving only the AZA an exemption before changing the law to include ZAA or USDA as well.

Not related to the acquisition of species, but I also recall hearing staff at an AZA zoo scoff at someone’s resume over the fact that they worked at a ZAA facility. It just tells a lot about the AZA’s humility.
 
my advice would be to begin a new thread and kick it off with your post. Otherwise, your thoughts will be buried on the Rosamond Gifford Zoo thread and the majority of people on this site won't ever read it.
To endorse this, I never look at the NA forum (but for San Diego and WCS facilities) and just by pure chance I decided to look at the latest post: @ThylacineAlive 's reply is very insightful on the situation on the other side of the Atlantic which, unfortunately, was already suspected.
 
Thylo, your write up is an absolute masterpiece of this website. I just hope we don't get NDA'd for it.
Nobody's getting NDA'd. :p Outside organizations don't police this forum and nothing being discussed is confidential.

Echoing @snowleopard and @Mickey that this discussion absolutely warrants being split into a separate thread. That was the most well articulated breakdown of problems with current AZA leadership that I've ever heard. While I've been aware of some recent issues (tension between AZA executives and animal-centric people, excessive phase-outs/collection homogenization, hostility towards the private sector, etc), I didn't realize just how far things have spiraled.
 
@ThylacineAlive This is the best and boldest thing you've ever written on ZooChat. I agree wholeheartedly with most of your comments and in fact my advice would be to begin a new thread and kick it off with your post. Otherwise, your thoughts will be buried on the Rosamond Gifford Zoo thread and the majority of people on this site won't ever read it.
Perhaps one needs reminding that I broached the subject in the first place when observing how AZA is taking leave of whole family orders or species groups that are (critically) endangered and on IUCN's Red List and yet AZA is phasing them out (even if the few zoos that do have large breeding groups and all).

As this has hit a chord with quite a few North American Zoochat forum contributors I would also favor shifting this away from the Rosamond Gifford. I think there is still much to be said and done over how AZA policies and some individuals within the organisation seem to have such unwelcome influence over policy and pandering to AW and activism instead of objective considerations for ex situ conservation breeding and not marginalising and belittling the private breeders' communities.
 
I thought the worse Dan Ashe has done to the AZA would be collaborating with HSUS who once said that “zoos are a fact if life” and that they [HSUS] “urge that zoos act as sanctuaries” for animals from the trade before changing their webpage at the time.

This really begs the question how Dan Ashe got into such a position in the first place? And why has the rest of the community enabled him for the longest time? Call me a tin-foil wearing conspiracy theorist but I assume Ashe is fueled with this passion to end the entire wildlife trade, showing it to those dastardly, ignorant, mustache-twirling villains at the wildlife trade. And we have curators, keepers, and fans thinking that they are exempt from this crusade not knowing that accredited zoos are also a part of the wildlife trade. If people are going to say that this is not appeasement to the ilk of HSUS but altruistic good from the bottom of their hearts, let me tell you, if zoos are willing to self destruct over “being good” , then they may as well just shut down this instant. Nothing ever lasts long with the “power of good” in the real world.

The worst part of all of is that the AZA is aware that its species diversity is decreasing. ZIMS posted a blog post showing how AZA is losing managed species citing AZA’s own director of population management strategy. Having this aired out for a global community to see should be embarrassing for the AZA.

As someone who grew up in a country which is anything but a zoo paradise, I grew up looking up to American zoos wishing to work in one ever since my visit to Bronx. I believed that the AZA’s leadership in the industry could be reflected by the number of species they held, which I thought would increase as animal keeping techniques improved. To see the president of the AZA throw all that away all those animals away like some sort of burden is a huge slap on the face and not fair for other regions in the world who either could use international collaboration expand their programs or regions that are burdened with too many programs to deal on their own (like, for example, the EAZA juggling four leopard programs)

But hey, at least the space left from phased out species can be used for larger enclosures for the same handful of species. Big enclosures focusing on one or two species are good, right? /s


Slight correction Mr. ~Thylo, it should be “Being an accredited Zoo keeping an animal”. When I used to be concerned over exotic pet laws, I recall seeing many proposals giving only the AZA an exemption before changing the law to include ZAA or USDA as well.

Not related to the acquisition of species, but I also recall hearing staff at an AZA zoo scoff at someone’s resume over the fact that they worked at a ZAA facility. It just tells a lot about the AZA’s humility.

Your correction is spot on. Being an accredited zoo is ok, being an sanctuary is ok (even if conditions are far worse than your average zoo), being a wildlife rescue is ok, but ZAA? Private? Oh no, that just won't do.

I've heard the AZA is even moving away from working with their sustainability partners, at least to some extent. This could impact their working relations with places like the World Bird Sanctuary and Rum Creek, and adversely affect the programs of the species managed in cooperation with such facilities (Egyptian Vulture, Edward's Pheasant, Liberian Pygmy Hippo, Javan Banteng, Lowland Anoa...). I know two private keepers in Florida who have great success with Great Blue Turaco and who currently work with some AZA zoos on their management. The AZA themselves struggle with breeding this species, so will they resign to having their population further dwindle and die out to not have themselves associated with a couple of reputable breeders simply because they're private keepers? This of course goes back to my previous mention of the TSA (and turtle-focused zoos like Bronx, Tennessee Aquarium, Gladys Porter) regularly working with private individuals. Luckily, I don't see that changing in this instance, because that would be entirely counter productive and somehow I have faith in turtle people to know that. If only the AZA as a whole understood that...

I will say that there was never a scenario where the number of sustainably managed zoo populations was going to increase. There was always going to be a decrease in biodiversity, simply because sustainable populations need room to grow and each program needs a minimum number of participating institutions (and square footage) to keep them going. But it never had to be this severe. This feels like they've just given up.

And you hit the nail on the head as far as AZA's partnership and participation with the EAZA goes. Back in the day, the two entities worked together on managing certain species and divvied up the responsibility of managing others. That's how the AZA got Addra Gazelles while the EAZA got Mhorr Gazelles. That's how the AZA got Matschie's Tree-Kangaroo and the EAZA got Goodfellow's Tree-Kangaroo. The AZA just doesn't seem particularly interested in cooperating like that anymore. Not it's anything goes! If an AZA zoo still had a remaining herd of Mhorr Gazelles, it would not surprise me in the slightest today if they just randomly crossed them with Addra just because it looked good on paper to people who don't know better. If both taxa were on their last legs and extinct in the wild, I'd understand the decision. The AZA's (mostly?) Sri Lankan Sloth Bear program didn't pan out, so they've imported Indian Sloth Bears from EAZA's more successful program. I understand that, as unfortunate as I think it is. I understand why Asian Elephants are not managed in zoos by subspecies despite how imperiled some of their subspecies (particularly the island taxa) are. But that's not where we're at with species like Lions, Ocelots, giant tortoises (do not get me started on Aldabrachelys...). This isn't conservation.

~Thylo
 
Furthering this is an issue that the AZA may or may not realize is happening due to this short sighted policy: tourism. I am a huge zoo and aquarium fan - and I always stop at a facility when traveling (more than 1 if possible), but the general traveling public really does ask themselves the question "what does this zoo have that my home zoo does not?" More than once my wife has asked that very question, and honestly usually the answer is that there isn't anything unique to see. There really are people that want to see something different or unique, and proper advertising of species, even not-as-exciting-to-the-public species can work when done well.

I remember when ZooTampa/Lowry Park Zoo did a big advertisement blitz for their new (at the time) naked mole rat exhibit. It worked, people went to the zoo just to see them. They no longer hold the species, and bizarrely held them BTS for close to 20 years after the naked mole rat exhibit in the old children's zoo was torn down.

The homogenization of AZA zoos is a real issue to anyone interested in this subject, the amount of species that most AZA zoos have lost over the last 20 years is astounding.
 
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Transvaal Lions (subspecies krugeri under traditional taxonomy, melanochaita under modern) are now being admixed with a male from Sudan (nubica under traditional taxonomy, leo under IUCN) who has a top breeding priority recommendation because "genetic diversity".

Just out of curiosity, what specific animal is this sentence referring to?
 
The fact he ran USFWS should make him public enemy, but nooooooo.
Now the Zoos cater and bow to him and the AR people. Zoos in the AZA are becoming McDonald’s or Burger King to cater to the Masses. The future is bleak and will only get worse under Ashe and his croneys.
Literally, all of the AZA zoos I have been to sell the exact same McDonald's like cuisine.


Furthering this is an issue that the AZA may or may not realize is happening due to this short sighted policy: tourism. I am a huge zoo and aquarium fan - and I always stop at a facility when traveling (more than 1 if possible), but the general traveling public really does ask themselves the question "what does this zoo have that my home zoo does not?" More than once my wife has asked that very question, and honestly usually the answer is that there isn't anything unique to see. There really are people that want to see something different or unique, and proper advertising of species, even not-as-exciting-to-the-public species can work when done well.

I remember when ZooTampa/Lowry Park Zoo did a big advertisement blitz for their new (at the time) naked mole rat exhibit. It worked, people went to the zoo just to see them. They no longer hold the species, and bizarrely held them BTS for close to 20 years after the naked mole rat exhibit in the old children's zoo was torn down.

The homogenization of AZA zoos is a real issue to anyone interested in this subject, the amount of species that most AZA zoos have lost over the last 20 years is astounding.

Born too late to experience the peak of whatever it is that I am interested in, born just in time to experience the downfall of it. Story of my life, every single time :(

I guess this may be the reason why my local zoo is closing down a lot more of their exhibits, and repeating the same animal species across their exhibit spaces

> I understand why Asian Elephants are not managed in zoos by subspecies despite how imperiled some of their subspecies (particularly the island taxa) are.

I didn't even know Asian Elephants had sub species!
 
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On the topic of AZA, what role does WAZA play when they accredit a zoological park?

Apparently they despite being the governing body of the association also has around 300 accredited members
 
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Fascinating and worrying thread, thank you, @ThylacineAlive.

I shall read the comments with anticipation and anxiety that the same is happening in Europe. I have had a conversation with an English bird curator who expressed huge satisfaction that the rarities in his collection had died off and that he could essentially focus on what every other zoo in England had.
 
Fascinating and worrying thread, thank you, @ThylacineAlive.

I shall read the comments with anticipation and anxiety that the same is happening in Europe. I have had a conversation with an English bird curator who expressed huge satisfaction that the rarities in his collection had died off and that he could essentially focus on what every other zoo in England had.
If this is what is happening in the Associations in developed regions I can only imagine what is happening in the developing regions like Latam, Africa, and Southeast Asia
 
Just out of curiosity, what specific animal is this sentence referring to?
I wanna say Simba at Great Plains Zoo?

Male "473" who I recently learned was imported from Sudan in 2012. I know he was at Detroit when I visited in 2022 (not that I knew that at the time or remember seeing him...) and was there until earlier this year. I believe he is the breeding male at Great Plains now, yes. I'm not sure if he's been anywhere else besides Detroit and Great Plains. I do know he has sired numerous offspring with Transvaal females and at least the breeding males at Wildlife Safari, Audubon, North Carolina, and Roosevelt descend from him.

~Thylo
 
Male "473" who I recently learned was imported from Sudan in 2012. I know he was at Detroit when I visited in 2022 (not that I knew that at the time or remember seeing him...) and was there until earlier this year. I believe he is the breeding male at Great Plains now, yes. I'm not sure if he's been anywhere else besides Detroit and Great Plains. I do know he has sired numerous offspring with Transvaal females and at least the breeding males at Wildlife Safari, Audubon, North Carolina, and Roosevelt descend from him.

~Thylo
Detroit's Former male lion, Simba has only been at Detroit (prior to great plains) and has only ever had one cub, which now resides at Sacramento. He is now at Great Plains.
Edit- Also he wasn't imported from sudan, he came from to royal family from Qatar to make his origin more fuzzy.
 
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I shall read the comments with anticipation and anxiety that the same is happening in Europe. I have had a conversation with an English bird curator who expressed huge satisfaction that the rarities in his collection had died off and that he could essentially focus on what every other zoo in England had.
Perhaps within the EAZA there's sub-regions/countries that go on either way of the spectrum, from not wanting rarities and only focusing on ABC and common species to an extent where they keep importing new taxa that are not guaranteed to have a future in other facilities or in which no other zoos want to invest in.

As of now EAZA stands with diversity, or at least it cannot impose collection plans on every facility (otherwise we wouldn't have Berlins, Beauval, Budapest, Prague and Plzeň to name a few, although they are in the process of shrinking down for good reasons), both for the good and bad aspects.

It seems that the future of rarities, if EU/EAZA is to follow the American cousin, will be left to unaccredited facilities and privates which may or may not have the same ethics and standards of a continent-wide scientific-based association (not to go against privates, but not everyone is equally good, that must be cleared).
 
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