I can't say I've noticed the elephants at the zoo head-bobbing (I used to go about once a month). I didn't pay much attention to the elephants, but whenever I saw them they were normally just moving around, and several times I saw Jewel and Tina in training sessions. That said, we can't say for sure that those stereotypical behaviors aren't due to whatever environments they came from. I can't speak for Tina and Crystal, but I know Billy's old exhibit was pretty bad, and that he was alone for some time.
Los Angeles Zoo & Botanical Gardens Activists trying to seize LA zoo elephant
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I can't say I've noticed the elephants at the zoo head-bobbing (I used to go about once a month). I didn't pay much attention to the elephants, but whenever I saw them they were normally just moving around, and several times I saw Jewel and Tina in training sessions. That said, we can't say for sure that those stereotypical behaviors aren't due to whatever environments they came from. I can't speak for Tina and Crystal, but I know Billy's old exhibit was pretty bad, and that he was alone for some time.
From what I know, at least Billy’s head bobbing now only occurs when he’s anticipating keeper interactions. When I visited, I only noticed him doing it once and he was shortly greeted by a keeper. I saw Billy all over the exhibit and he was always in a different spot each time I came to the exhibit and he never was head bobbing except for that one time. Billy came to the LA Zoo with the head bobbing behavior and the keepers have worked very hard to minimize it. Because you were only at the zoo a short time, I would say you caught the elephants in anticipation of more food or keeper interactions.
Old thread, I know, but I am curious about this. Have the protests gone down now? How did the LA Zoo handle them and how is the zoo doing?
Latest info that is coming out is that the board members are still searching for a group of veterinarians to assess Billy's conditions in the zoo. No timeline on when they will make that assessment. Protests are still ongoing. LA zoo has been trying to get ahead of the situation by posting videos about the elephant program and inviting board members and media to tour the elephant complex. The zoo is remaining as open as possible and I commend them for it.The activists have stated that Billy is not their end goal. He is the "low hanging fruit" because he is housed singly and is owned by the city which gives the board jurisdiction over him. They want to end the elephant program in LA and set precedent to be used in future cases.
There was a protest today:
Demonstrators call on LA Zoo to free Billy the elephant, hold rally ahead of World Elephant Day
Demonstrators call on LA Zoo to free Billy the elephant, hold rally ahead of World Elephant Day
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
This thread isn't there! I wonder why it would have been removed? Why don't you try to make it again? It's World Elephant Day and there's a protest there, so it's certainly timely. I think the rules say you have to include content to start a thread, so why don't you use newsfeed from today to support your explanation for starting the thread?
(I'd do it, but your user name and avatar are so much more persuasive than mine!)
It was deleted as you are not allowed to post petitions on the forums.
That's what this thread is... a thread about Billy the elephant.
Yi Qi
Well-Known Member
Yet more celebrities complaining about Billy and his captivity.
Cher And Lily Tomlin Urge Los Angeles Zoo To Release Billy The Elephant: ‘He Is In Pain’
Cher And Lily Tomlin Urge Los Angeles Zoo To Release Billy The Elephant: ‘He Is In Pain’
It's almost like these animal rights activist would rather have these animals go extinct, than have zoo save them. Especially since the Endangered Species Act has just been gutted. With the way things are going, and if the animal rights nuts get their wish, the only way we can view elephants in the future, is by seeing their dusty skeletons in museums.
Yi Qi
Well-Known Member
@Beastking04 Technically the ESA was weakened; it can still be salvaged.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Just a thought:. The activists have only gone after Billy, not the girls, so even they can't find fault with this extraordinary habitat. Their sole argument must be that he lives alone--despite the fact that male elephants have typically been thought to live alone or, at most, in small bachelor herds. Has anyone at the zoo thought to try introducing Billy to one of the girls? There are three, so at least one, if not more, could be a personality match? It would seem to be such an easy way to eliminate activists' only real argument that it would be a shame not to try.
For what it's worth, with PAWS claiming the need to build an $8 million barn just for Billy, I wonder why he couldn't live in the barn with Sabu and Prince, or simply enlarge that building? Simply put, is he going to even have any companions at PAWS? Do Sabu and Prince cohabit? If not, there's absolutely no advantage to a move for Billy except acreage, which is quite ample in LA.
For what it's worth, with PAWS claiming the need to build an $8 million barn just for Billy, I wonder why he couldn't live in the barn with Sabu and Prince, or simply enlarge that building? Simply put, is he going to even have any companions at PAWS? Do Sabu and Prince cohabit? If not, there's absolutely no advantage to a move for Billy except acreage, which is quite ample in LA.
As a fellow Angelino who has been to the LA Zoo since a child, the quality of care and welfare that is bestowed on Billy has become way better in my opinion. I remember the relatively small enclosure the elephants had when I was a child and it appeared at the time, which would’ve been the mid 90’s, outdated. With the expansion, Elephants of Asia, they are given way more space and enrichment area than ever before. I don’t get why they continue to protest outside the zoo and from what I’ve seen the main elephant keepers do is amazing. They encourage positive reinforcement for all the elephants not just Billy. About 1 week ago, during the elephant enrichment event, Tina the elephant was being a bit stubborn at first and not once did I ever see the keepers get frustrated or even as much as a disappointed face. It was much more of “we are on their time and when they decide they want to do whenever” kind of attitude and I mean it in a good way. I’ve seen every single elephant at the zoo partake in their whole habitat and admittedly I do wish more shade was available due to the very dry weather in Griffith Park. If they want to cool off, they can take a dip in the pool by the elephant circle which borders the Red Ape Rainforest exhibit, or soak under the waterfall which appears to be one of Billy’s spots to hang out. Long story short, the LA Zoo has come a long way in regards of their treatment and care of their largest residents and I don’t think any sanctuary will be able to dedicate the time and care the zoo provides. I’m not trying to disparage any sanctuary but I think the zoo has been doing one hell of a job for the pachyderms.
As far as I know, Billy is the only elephant at the LA Zoo that is actually owned by the city of LA. The girls are all on loans. This means that Billy is the only elephant the city council has any power over so that’s why they focus on him. The girls are also all post reproductive so I think they don’t want to risk Billy potentially injuring them. Billy does occasionally have the ability to interact with the girls through barriers though. Which does bring up a sticking point on this forum as to why LA hasn’t brought in a potential reproductive female or do something similar to Denver and bring in a young bull that needs a mentor. We can only speculate.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Activists have been after Billy for years, because he would be a big victory, getting an animal to a sanctuary through a city agency that has no expertise in animal welfare, and thus achieving the added bonus of getting the Zoo's professional AZA accreditation pulled. This would be such a train wreck that I can't understand why the zoo isn't doing more to undercut the activists' argument--and with the wonderful LA habitat, their only reason can be companionship. I agree, Echo Beast, that safety for all must be maintained, but why not try limited interactions with the girls when Billy is not in musth? It doesn't hurt to try.
Secondly, let's push back a bit on their alternative, the PAWS sanctuary. If they need to build an $8 million new barn--not an addition to Sabu and Prince's barn--this can only mean they want separation. And that's presumably all the time, not just when Billy is in musth. Even with one of the PAWS elephants castrated, they'd still require separation for Billy. Funny. Isn't that precisely what they're complaining about? Only they tend to call it "solitary confinement" when a zoo does it. And another thing--will PAWS require Billy to be castrated too? If the zoo loses control over both his home and that medical decision, they deserve to lose AZA accreditation.
Good defense is weakening the offense. Let's see some movement on their companionship argument. Years ago when the activists tried this, SD sent Tina and Jewel to the zoo. Now they have Shaunzi. Let's see some effort at socialization until the SSP or another zoo steps up and sends a young male for Billy to mentor. We've seen this work with Rex and Kandula in OKC, Hank and Beco in Columbus, and Groucho and the boys in Denver. Now's the time for Houston to send Tucker or Baylor or Duncan, or for Denver to send Bodhi or European Billy to LA. Even an attempt to provide a bit of female companionship and a young bull to mentor will RUIN their argument for good. If a young male is a good thing for Billy, great! If keepers find that it's not, then the zoo has the evidence it needs to prove that Billy does not need male companionship. Either outcome would end this onslaught.
Action always trumps inaction. That's the activists' biggest advantage right now.
Secondly, let's push back a bit on their alternative, the PAWS sanctuary. If they need to build an $8 million new barn--not an addition to Sabu and Prince's barn--this can only mean they want separation. And that's presumably all the time, not just when Billy is in musth. Even with one of the PAWS elephants castrated, they'd still require separation for Billy. Funny. Isn't that precisely what they're complaining about? Only they tend to call it "solitary confinement" when a zoo does it. And another thing--will PAWS require Billy to be castrated too? If the zoo loses control over both his home and that medical decision, they deserve to lose AZA accreditation.
Good defense is weakening the offense. Let's see some movement on their companionship argument. Years ago when the activists tried this, SD sent Tina and Jewel to the zoo. Now they have Shaunzi. Let's see some effort at socialization until the SSP or another zoo steps up and sends a young male for Billy to mentor. We've seen this work with Rex and Kandula in OKC, Hank and Beco in Columbus, and Groucho and the boys in Denver. Now's the time for Houston to send Tucker or Baylor or Duncan, or for Denver to send Bodhi or European Billy to LA. Even an attempt to provide a bit of female companionship and a young bull to mentor will RUIN their argument for good. If a young male is a good thing for Billy, great! If keepers find that it's not, then the zoo has the evidence it needs to prove that Billy does not need male companionship. Either outcome would end this onslaught.
Action always trumps inaction. That's the activists' biggest advantage right now.
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In regards to pushing back against the activist, the zoo did have a kind of media day at the zoo not regarding the activists when it was Elephant Day last month at the zoo. They had so many activities and even walkthrough tours of the barn area, it seems they were anticipating the activists ahead of time due to their commission meeting taking place right after Elephant Day. I think they should continue to fight tooth and nail for Billy, he literally is at the center of the zoo and a mega star who has one of the best homes at the zoo as well as for the females. I do hope they can transition more elephants to the zoo because it could benefit from having more female elephants together which the barn alone reportedly can house up to 11 elephants. I’m glad to see that others are of the same mindset in regards for the zoo fighting against the naysayers.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Well, as Echo Beast points out, we have collectively been frustrated with Billy sitting in LA not being used for breeding. He's wild-born, and his genes are not represented in the captive population, so he's quite valuable. The SSP has not sent a female to breed with him, nor are we aware of his semen having been used to sire calves elsewhere. Usually it's the males who are relocated while females remain with matriarchal herds. I feel sure that LA has been asked to loan him to another zoo and they have refused; it's hard to blame them when they built that truly extraordinary habitat literally for him, their pride and joy. But the fact is that the only "spare" females would be from Ringling, who has already loaned quite a few elephants to breeding institutions, and probably has plans for its girls. Thus, valuable Billy is sitting in LA not contributing to the genepool.
But this is an entirely separate issue in my mind. If the activists win this case and LA loses its accreditation, it will set an irrevocable precedent. This must be stopped. And the zoo will only prevail if it DOES something like I propose above. I'm afraid what you witnessed--while lovely--were typical Elephant Day awareness activities that all zoos do, and they do little to weaken the central argument of companionship that will make or break this case. Given the stakes, I'm flummoxed that the zoo--and the AZA--aren't being more pro-active. Sitting back and being the perplexed victim will do absolutely nothing if Billy is successfully portrayed to be the victim.
But this is an entirely separate issue in my mind. If the activists win this case and LA loses its accreditation, it will set an irrevocable precedent. This must be stopped. And the zoo will only prevail if it DOES something like I propose above. I'm afraid what you witnessed--while lovely--were typical Elephant Day awareness activities that all zoos do, and they do little to weaken the central argument of companionship that will make or break this case. Given the stakes, I'm flummoxed that the zoo--and the AZA--aren't being more pro-active. Sitting back and being the perplexed victim will do absolutely nothing if Billy is successfully portrayed to be the victim.
Wow I didn’t think of it like that before, he would diversify the gene pool for his specie and it would make total sense to have him be a stud for other breeding females. I agree that they should fight back more because it’s almost an endless battle that they need to win with their accreditation being lost if they don’t as well it being a major victory for activists. It would be a good incentive to have Billy add to the gene pool and possibly increase the numbers of Asian elephants with his genetics like you said. I would hate to see him leave to another zoo but that may be the only alternative for him and the whole specie as well as for any AZA accredited zoo to show that with his genetics we can ensure the further survival and diversity of the specie. Maybe if he were to leave on an agreement that some of his children would grow up once matured and independent from their mothers to be raised for the rest of their lives at the LA zoo, it’s just a thought and maybe a dumb one. I’m sorry if I seem a bit ignorant to all of this, I just saw the thread and wanted to add my piece about what’s going on at my local zoo.