Adelaide Zoo Adelaide Zoo News (16 March 2011)

dpedwards08 said:
In response to Hix’s statement “I'm rather tired of seeing statements like this, as most of the reptile keepers in Australian Zoos that I know of have just as much experience - or even more - than the private keepers.”

Hix, I’m sorry you feel the way you do, but please allow me to explain why I believe that private keepers have more knowledge and experience than zoo keepers. Western Ranges Taipans were being bred in the United States by underground herpers who have managed to get breeding stock right after they were discovered in September of 2007. If I’m not mistaken, I think it was the following season that they were breeding Western Ranges Taipans and producing captive born babies. Their captive husbandry and breeding routines have already been figured out and mastered in the United States whereas the Adelaide Zoo just recently got their hands on two live specimens. It is my understanding that zoos and museums have to follow strict rules and guidelines, acquire permits, take the time and money to do field surveys, etc for their any of their projects. And correct me if I’m wrong, but zoos and museums have to document everything very accurately for new groundbreaking discoveries to take place. Any information that an adventuresome herpetoculturist needs is easily found on the internet. All it takes is a plane ticket and a rental vehicle.
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you are an idiot*


*I could have thought up something much more profound and in-depth to respond with, but I think that what I did say sums up nicely what I think of animal smugglers and the people who support them
 
dpedwards08 said:
Hix, I’m sorry you feel the way you do, but please allow me to explain why I believe that private keepers have more knowledge and experience than zoo keepers. Western Ranges Taipans were being bred in the United States by underground herpers who have managed to get breeding stock right after they were discovered in September of 2007. If I’m not mistaken, I think it was the following season that they were breeding Western Ranges Taipans and producing captive born babies. Their captive husbandry and breeding routines have already been figured out and mastered in the United States whereas the Adelaide Zoo just recently got their hands on two live specimens. It is my understanding that zoos and museums have to follow strict rules and guidelines, acquire permits, take the time and money to do field surveys, etc for their any of their projects. And correct me if I’m wrong, but zoos and museums have to document everything very accurately for new groundbreaking discoveries to take place. Any information that an adventuresome herpetoculturist needs is easily found on the internet. All it takes is a plane ticket and a rental vehicle.
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Firstly, I said keepers in Australian Zoos have more experience than the private keepers - I wasn't talking about out-and-out criminals in foreign lands. You talk about zoos and museums needing licenses to collect - that's true. But all reptiles in this country are protected and everybody needs a license to collect (except, of course, out-and-out criminals and smugglers).

Secondly, keepers in Australian Zoos know how to breed Taipans and Brown Snakes, but as zoos breed for other zoos, there is not a lot of call for them to be bred in zoos. Many zoo keepers have there own private reptile collections and have been breeding for years.

And just to make my position clear to everyone: there are some very learned and experienced private herpetoculturists in Australia, but there are also a lot of idiots and ****** with little experience. The keepers working with reptiles in Australian zoos that I know of are also very experienced.

I will re-iterate again - I am talking about the situation in Australia only, and no other country.

Hix
 
I understand that you are only talking about Australian zoo keepers, but in this discussion I am comparing them to private keepers all over the world. But even if we were only talking about private keepers vs. zoo keepers in Australia, there have been private individuals in Australia that have bred Central Ranges Taipans before the Adelaide Zoo even acquired their first live pair. All zoo keepers aren't better than all private keepers and vice versa. Some are better than others in both situations and not everybody breeds the same species. Everybody has their own knowledge and experience. One person might be better at breeding one species and the next person might be better at breeding something different. It just depends. My original statement was that it's too bad that private venomous snake keepers (especially) aren't given more credit for their experience with captive husbandry.
 
Are you sure you are not getting your species mixed up? As the species Adelaide Zoo has recently acquired, only 5 known specimens to science, one male and 4 females (direct information from the most recent Zoos SA magazine). I doubt, if it were only described in 2007, that any breeders would have collected any Oxyuranus temporalis and bred them without anyone knowing.
 
dpedwards08 said:
But even if we were only talking about private keepers vs. zoo keepers in Australia, there have been private individuals in Australia that have bred Central Ranges Taipans before the Adelaide Zoo even acquired their first live pair.
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So, you are suggesting the authorities give rare and uncommon species to private individuals who have broken the law by illegally collecting that species from the wild? Why would they deal with people who have no respect for the law?
 
The species that I am talking about is the Western Ranges Taipan (Oxyuranus temporalis). It was discovered in September of 2007. There are seven total specimens that the general public/zoo community/science community knows about. Two of them are alive at the Adelaide Zoo being cared for by Terry Morley. There have also been specimens collected and bred by private individuals which very few people know about for obvious reasons. I'm not suggesting that any authorities gave the specimens to the private individuals. The private individuals collected and bred the specimens on their own without anybody knowing. The reason that there have only been seven found by scientists is because they are doing their work on Aboriginal Land with restrictions which limits their work. There is no correlation between the limited number of surveys by scientists and the status of the Western Ranges Taipan (Oxyuranus temporalis). From my understanding of the private individuals that have gone searching for them, they aren't all that uncommon.
 
Not to nit-pick, but according to most (all?) websites I found through a google search, isn't it called the 'Central Ranges Taipan', and NOT the Western Ranges Taipan?
 
nanoboy said:
Not to nit-pick, but according to most (all?) websites I found through a google search, isn't it called the 'Central Ranges Taipan', and NOT the Western Ranges Taipan?
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From personnal experience Geography tends to confuse most Americans and that includes the ones,that have travelled the world in the American Military services,as I once had a serving member of there Army tell me that the United Kingdom was part of the USA!!
 
The reason I said my comment is, you have used two different names, one of which may represent another species. Also, how would you get this information of others breeding this species, while others, supposedly including scientists and other 'officials' have no idea that this is going on? Personally, for a new species, I find that strange.
 
My mistake, it's "Western" Ranges Taipan. I have no idea why I was calling it "Central" Ranges Taipan. In any other case, I would have called it a Western Ranges Taipan. I know that it is Oxyuranus temporalis.

I know their geographic locality. They have been found near Ilkurlka on the Anne Beadell Highway and also near the Walter James Range.

I know a person or two that has been breeding them here in the US and the Australian officials dont know anything.
 
dpedwards08 said:
Please be clear. Do you think this is a BAD thing?
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Stealing wild animals from their native environment, stuffing them into suitcases and smuggling them overseas? I'd say that's a pretty bad thing. And if you're involved in it, I hope you get caught and spend a good decade or so in jail.
 
Nobody is "stealing" anything and they aren't "stuffed", they are "gently placed" into suitcases. I'm just pulling your leg. An animal worth several thousands of dollars isn't going to endure cruel conditions through transit. Not really that different than normal shipping. There are far more cheap animals that suffer bad shipping conditions from legal exporters in third world countries. How do you think most zoos got their animals before this new conservation/holier than thou era came into existence? And I'm not bragging about anything and I'm not trying to make any friends in particular. I simply made the statement that private keepers are ahead of the ball game in some cases.
 
dpedwards08 said:
I know their geographic locality. They have been found near Ilkurlka on the Anne Beadell Highway and also near the Walter James Range.
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I know their geographic locality too - it's posted in the news articles on the web. Doesn't prove anything more than what you can read.

I think ZooChat has found another troll.

Hix
 
dpedwards08 said:
Nobody is "stealing" anything and they aren't "stuffed", they are "gently placed" into suitcases. I'm just pulling your leg. An animal worth several thousands of dollars isn't going to endure cruel conditions through transit. Not really that different than normal shipping. There are far more cheap animals that suffer bad shipping conditions from legal exporters in third world countries. How do you think most zoos got their animals before this new conservation/holier than thou era came into existence? And I'm not bragging about anything and I'm not trying to make any friends in particular. I simply made the statement that private keepers are ahead of the ball game in some cases.
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This is still illegal. Any shipment without legal permits is against the law, no matter what the conditions. You make think it is for a good cause, but in fact that is just plain stupid due to the fact nobody knows that they are being bred (now that you have told us.....) and once they tell of their 'great' breeding program, they will be most likely caught out and the snakes destroyed, which therefore means there is no point in illegally breeding this species (or sub-species).

What is the point of breeding a species if you can't do anything with them (in the sense you cannot share them with other zoos/facilities, etc)? Further more, the limited bloodline means soon enough they will be growing 3 heads and 5 tails!
 
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