African vs Asian Elephants

Elephas Maximus said:
Besides from decoding the DNA (that is nearly done for both species), the gene action & interaction sould also be studied. In other animals, a hybridization method is widely used in that case (both intergeneric and intrageneric) so why not for elephants?
They're somewhat expensive to be the lab animals, but eventually they will be, considering the growing urge of mammoth cloning.
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An African-Asian elephant hybrid would not survive more than a few days (as shown by Motty), much less to adulthood.

There would be no scientific value in producing this hybrid, and in any case, it is a fantasy and not going to happen.

If people want to help elephants they should be thinking of ways to help them survive in the wild so that we still have populations of wild African and Asian elephants in the 21st century and beyond.
 
Elephas Maximus said:
Making just one more crossbreed specimen with the intention of long-term research is way better than legal breeding of Asian elephants for circus needs (remember the Ringling 'Elephant Conservation Center' and horrible things happening here)
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I'm sorry, are you referring to Ringling CEC- which although has controversial training methods (it is a circus after all)- executes the most successful elephant breeding program in the Western hemisphere? With out their program the AZA's Asian elephant population would surely die out. With four births expected this year from the facility they will double the number expected in American Zoos.


And I think bottom line is- when there aren't enough breeding females of either species in captivity to sustain a population- a worthless experiment is not going to be implemented when the end result is already known to be a failure- in addition to the fact that it would not contribute to the long term survival of either species which are facing unprecedented pressures in range countries. This entire tangent belongs in the fantasy section of the forum.

A more realistic study may comprise of evaluating the behavior, genetic make up, and phenotypic trends of WILD LA and LC hybrids which do naturally occur in Central and West Africa. I think that study could reveal more about speciation and proboscidean genetics than... well... we all know....
 
DavidBrown said:
An African-Asian elephant hybrid would not survive more than a few days (as shown by Motty), much less to adulthood.

There would be no scientific value in producing this hybrid, and in any case, it is a fantasy and not going to happen.
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Your second point - the lack of scientific value in such a hybrid - is certainly correct. However, I would argue that the former point is not proven, as Motty died due to complications of a E.coli infection common in premature elephants, which may or may not have occurred whether he had been a hybrid or not. Until the infection took hold, in fact, he is said to have been suckling normally and was capable of moving around. As it is almost certain there will never be another such hybrid, we will never know whether they can never survive infancy.
 
To get back to the original question posed in this thread, it is a good one and could even be used as a small essay topic! Ive thought about it a bit and in my opinion, if I ran a zoo and had the choice between African elephants and Asian elephants, I would pick Asian elephants every day of the week! Here is my reason:

Lets look at all the "high profile" zoo animals of Africa and Asia (in the terms "normal people" as opposed to "zoo people/nerds/geeks" know them).

Elephant (Africa and Asia)
Lion (Africa and a tiny amount in Asia)
Tiger (Asia)
Giraffe (Africa)
Hippo (Africa)
Rhino (Africa and Asia)
Monkey (Africa and Asia)
Zebra (Africa)
Gorilla (Africa)
Orang-Utan (Asia)
Bear (Asia)

These are animals known to virtually everyone in society whether they are interested in animals or not - we need to aim at the lowest common denominator here. But lets look at it in more detail:

Lions (as someone said earlier in the thread) are known primarily as an African species - and besides, due to the bigger mane etc, the African Lion is a much more majestic animal than its Asian counterpart.

The White Rhino is a fairly high profile animal whereas a lot of people out there dont even know that the Indian Rhino even exists! (the Sumatran and Javan rhinos are even less well known). When Ive told people about my trips to India and Nepal, a common comment was "I didnt know there were rhinos in Asia".... Therefore the white rhino would be a priority as the most high profile African animal - although of course a zoo could stock both the White and Indian rhinos.

Monkeys live in both Africa and Asia and most zoos could exhibit species from both (say Vervet or Colobus or Patas monkeys from Africa and Macaques and Langurs from Asia). In any case they are not going to be the big ticket item in either an African or Asian exhibit.

Bears live in Asia but the bigger bears (polar bear and grissly bear) dont fit into an "Asian exhibit" while the sloth bear, sun bear etc are a bit smaller and not quite as exciting to a lot of people who have the mentality of "bigger is better".

Orangutans are great but they dont really have the same appeal as elephants.

Only the tiger really has a high profile status remotely like that of the elephant. But then so does the lion.... So the lion in Africa and tiger in Asia virtually cancel each other out. And with "A-Grade stars" giraffe, zebra, hippo and gorilla, the odds are very much stacked in Africas favour! If you had African elephants in there too, the tiger would have to play a lone hand in Asia against a "team of superstars" from Africa including elephants, lions, giraffes, zebras, gorillas, hippos, rhinos, cheetahs etc!

The sporting team analogy is relevant I think. With one absolute superstar, the Asian elephant, and his sergeant at arms (the tiger), as well as consistant crowd pullers (orangutan, bear, snow leopard etc), then the team of more consistant good players (lion, giraffe, zebra, gorilla, hippo, rhino, cheetah etc) is counterbalanced and we have an even contest! If the elephant represents Africa however we just have a complete blow-out!

If I was designing an African and Asian exhibit for the same zoo and hoping for an equal amount of interest in both, Id do as follows:

AFRICA:
1. White Rhino
2. Giraffe
3. Zebra
4. one type of smaller antelope (Gazelle etc)
5. Cheetah
6. Lion
7. Serval
8. two of the following monkey species (vervet monkey, colobus monkey, patas monkey, baboon)
9. Gorilla
10. Hippo
11. Ostrich
12. African Wild Dog
13. Guinea Fowl
14. various appropriate birds
15. Meerkat

ASIA:
1. Asian Elephant
2. Tiger
3. Indian Rhino (if possible to keep 2 rhino species in the same zoo)
4. Orangutan
5. Snow Leopard
6. Red Panda
7. Chital/Spotted Deer
8. Blackbuck Antelope
9. Common Langur Monkey
10. Rhesus Macaque Monkey
11. Peafowl
12. Otter
13. Sun Bear or Sloth Bear
14. Various appropriate birds
15. Gibbon (any type)

I think that with the elephants in the Asian exhibit, then the 2 exhibits are pretty much balanced! Keen to hear others views though.
 
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TeaLovingDave said:
Your second point - the lack of scientific value in such a hybrid - is certainly correct. However, I would argue that the former point is not proven, as Motty died due to complications of a E.coli infection common in premature elephants, which may or may not have occurred whether he had been a hybrid or not. Until the infection took hold, in fact, he is said to have been suckling normally and was capable of moving around. As it is almost certain there will never be another such hybrid, we will never know whether they can never survive infancy.
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Good information and point Dave.
 
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