Alladale, the next step

[kiang]

Paul Lister, the multi millionaire owner of Alladale wilderness estate, already home to a pair of European moose and a herd of wild boar, has alerted the Highland council of his intentions to apply for a zoo licence.
The new plans include four European wolf and eight wildcats.
General manager Hugh Fullerton-Smith said the proposal involved existing enclosures on 520 acres out of a 23,000 acre estate.

BBC News - Wild animal plan objection mooted

Alladale Wilderness Lodge and Reserve

 

[zoogiraffe]

Nice to see the plans still moving forward,lets hope it happens.

 

[ZooLeopard]

good news to hear. Another widlife park for the UK. I wonder how they would attract visitors, i know they have a hotel/B&B

 

[Zambar]

Alladale technically isn't a zoo; it's a giant enclosure that hopes to expand to 50,000 acres in the future on neighbouring estates with the purposes of creating a reserve with extinct Scottish fauna roaming as they once would. It's only getting a zoo lisence as it's required when containing animals like these in a compound space.

 

[simmojunior]

I am strongly against any reintroduction plans as I firmly believe we should try and protect the species we still have instead of artificially reintroducing the ones we have lost. The fact that there is a fence around it means that all it really equates to is a large safari park with predators and prey in the same cage. Boar, Lynx and Wolf have been extinct in the UK for over 300 years and I see no conservation reason why they need to return. Boar, for example, is internationally very common, so there is no real need to reintroduce it to the Uk for conservation purposes.

 

[zoogiraffe]

I am strongly against any reintroduction plans as I firmly believe we should try and protect the species we still have instead of artificially reintroducing the ones we have lost. The fact that there is a fence around it means that all it really equates to is a large safari park with predators and prey in the same cage. Boar, Lynx and Wolf have been extinct in the UK for over 300 years and I see no conservation reason why they need to return. Boar, for example, is internationally very common, so there is no real need to reintroduce it to the Uk for conservation purposes.

Quick question then How can we preach to another country about not killing all their big dangerous Cats,Bears,Wolves etc if we don`t have them living wild in this country,I firmly believe we should lead by example by showing that it can be done,by re-introducing them back into the wild.

 

[Jurek7]

Boar, for example, is internationally very common, so there is no real need to reintroduce it to the Uk for conservation purposes.

And I see no justification in Britain showing responsibility to protect wildlife on other countries, who should conserve all the animals Londoners don't want to protect.

 

[simmojunior]

The best way we can justify preaching about protection of big cats abroad is by showing a genuine desire to protect the species we already had. Organisations such as the RSPB and Natural england keep on reintroducing big money spinning animals such as White Tailed Eagles and Beavers. If they were genuinely passionate about making a difference maybe they would reintroduce less glamourous animals such as Wryneck.

 

[redpanda]

I am strongly against any reintroduction plans as I firmly believe we should try and protect the species we still have instead of artificially reintroducing the ones we have lost. The fact that there is a fence around it means that all it really equates to is a large safari park with predators and prey in the same cage. Boar, Lynx and Wolf have been extinct in the UK for over 300 years and I see no conservation reason why they need to return. Boar, for example, is internationally very common, so there is no real need to reintroduce it to the Uk for conservation purposes.

Without the large carnivores, red deer numbers in Britain have sky-rocketed which has, in conjunction with deforestation, led to the conifer forests of scotland being massively reduced in size. It's all very well saying look after what you've got, but to do that sometimes you need to bring back what you had.

I, for one, am very glad that this project is back on track as, after the fall of MFI, I was worried Lister would pull out but thankfully that has not happened. I see Alladale as an example and hopefully the fences will, in due course, be pulled down and we will have lynx, moose and wolves (not sure whether the public would accept brown bears) roaming the highlands once again.

 

[ZooLeopard]

They (or distant relatives) were here first. We were one of the many factors that made them extinct in the UK. I agree that it is physically impossible to reintroduce animals like wolves and lynx into now residential areas but the highlands are a great starting point. Man made the mess so man should put it right., though in some cases like i said it is just not feesable. As long as everything is kept on top of, I look forward to seeing this estate up and running.

 

[Vulpes]

I am strongly against any reintroduction plans as I firmly believe we should try and protect the species we still have instead of artificially reintroducing the ones we have lost. The fact that there is a fence around it means that all it really equates to is a large safari park with predators and prey in the same cage. Boar, Lynx and Wolf have been extinct in the UK for over 300 years and I see no conservation reason why they need to return. Boar, for example, is internationally very common, so there is no real need to reintroduce it to the Uk for conservation purposes.

Thats like saying we should forget about spix macaws now that they are extinct in the wild and just conserve the macaws that we have left in south America! Or close down zoos and stop all breeding programs, that is what the breeding programs are there for should there be a crash in the wild the animals can be put back.

I am all in favor of this reintroduction and I cant wait to see this plan come to fruition.

I wonder where the wolves will be coming from? Will he source them in the UK or abroad?

I bought an interesting book a few weeks ago about bears wolves and wild boar in the UK and Ireland. I was so surprised to learn that the Romans prized Scottish bears to fight in the coliseum they were known as Caledonian bears!

 

[Vulpes]

Just had a think about the problems they are having up there with the right to ramble laws, I wonder if they operate tours of the park perhaps with an armed guide would this be considered fare access? I mean if the public can access the park, but maybe were advised not to? signs saying enter at your own risk etc. Id love to see this get the go ahead. I think it will too. I think the main problem here is it is a private guy trying to do this. He is showing the goverment up really and maybe thats why they are being unhelpful? anybody educated in the law able to find a loop hole?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

simmojunior,

You seem to have a rather blinkered-tinkered view of what conservation should be/entail. I agree with the majority here that your quip that since these species have been extinct for 300 years they are no longer valid whether or not they are part of the historical species assemblage / ecosystem.

We declare ecosystem integrity and habitat restoration elsewhere, so why not at home. The UK has a massive hunting lobby, yet it does not have the large predators to effectively control the numbers of red deer and other ungulates. That is missing a substantial part of the UK island ecosystem at play.

It requires not just the water vole, dormouse et cetera ..., it requires re-introduction of wild boar, beaver, white-tailed sea eagle, European bison, European wild horse, lynx and wolf +bear for it to be fully operating under near-natural state. The UK has an obligation also under EC + EU legislation and Europa Natura2000 directives.

To hell with all that ... I beg you pardon? What credibility do UK RSPB/ ICBP, WWF and English Nature have if they argued their case that way ?????

To my mind: the UK cannot speak of a fully integrated ecosystem without having the above-mentioned species. Whether they have been effectively locally extinct is irrelevant to the case in hand.

I would say something not dissimilar on this vis a vis my home country's own ecosystem where some if not many of the species mentioned forthwith having been lacking (sometimes even down to the Middle Ages).

 

[simmojunior]

I do not except the point that predators are an effective way of helping the ecosystem. Although, they will obviously reduce red deer numbers, which will be of benefit, they will also be of detrimental effect to the other wildlife. For example, the reintroduction of Lynx is likely to have a dire effect on the already diminishing population of Black Grouse.
Alladale, to me, seems a clear case of someone reintroducing big money animals rather than having a genuine desire for conservation.

 

[adrian1963]

Simmojunior just a quick up date in the Midlands there have been many sightings and accidents involving wild boar this as been happening for years and the reason being according to agencies is that they came from escaped animals and have bred in the wild
thus making them non excinct in the uk

 

[redpanda]

I do not except the point that predators are an effective way of helping the ecosystem. Although, they will obviously reduce red deer numbers, which will be of benefit, they will also be of detrimental effect to the other wildlife. For example, the reintroduction of Lynx is likely to have a dire effect on the already diminishing population of Black Grouse.

You just answered your own question. As I said in my previous post the explosion in red deer numbers has led to the destruction of virtually all extant pine forest and made it very difficult for it to be re-established. Meanwhile, one of the main causes for the black grouse to be in such a precarious situation is the loss of its prefered habitat - boreal forest. Therefore, although it would have to be carefully monitored, the introduction of large carnivores should actually help to improve black grouse numbers. Remember that lynx do not simply eat grouse, they may take one occasionally but are far more likely to go for a bird they encounter more frequently. It is the simple spider's web analogy, if you take out one part of the eco-system, there will be reverberations across the rest.

Alladale, to me, seems a clear case of someone reintroducing big money animals rather than having a genuine desire for conservation.

Were you aware that they are working on a reintroduction programme for red squirrels in the local area, or that they campaigned for the reintroduction of the beaver. These species are hardly "big name" and yet show that there is a genuine commitment to re-wilding the highlands. Yes, the media focus on the wolves, bears, lynx and moose but that does not mean they are the only thing alladale themselves focus on, although undoubtedly they are necessary to bring in enough money to make the venture worthwhile.

 

[jacks zoo]

It's only getting a zoo lisence as it's required when containing animals like these in a compound space.

As far as i am aware a zoo licence is only required when public are to be admitted to the site.

 

[Pertinax]

It's only getting a zoo lisence as it's required when containing animals like these in a compound space.

As far as i am aware a zoo licence is only required when public are to be admitted to the site.

They may neeed a zoo licence because long distance walkers are still fighting to keep their access along paths through the Estate, so maybe they constitute 'visitors'. Also people visiting the estate for their other facilities (Health Farm/Hotel etc) would no doubt want to see these animals too, though it would not be officially a collection open to the public..

 

[Dan]

I got all fired up when I read this thread, not least because it seemed to me to relate to the issues brought up by me in the thread on the Swedish wolf hunt.

I had never heard about Paul Lister and Alladale until today, but i googled and found out that he is indeed a multimillionare (who invented a fortune from his father who was in the furniture business). He bought the Alladale estate in 2003 and has developed it into a luxury resort. The business in in partnership with an international corporation dealing in luxury vacations for the really wealthy. (I also found out that the two moose currently living at Alladale were bought from Sweden!)

But aren´t you all jumping to conclusions a bit when it comes to the aspirations of Mr Lister´s?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression that I get from my googling is that at least the initial intention is to create some very big fenced in enclosures for animals such as wolves, bears, moose etc. Each species in its own enclosure. I did not find any info on immediate plans for creating an enclosure where prey and predator were to be combined (such as in the really big, privately owned, wildlgame reserves in South Africa). I found even less info on plans to eventually opening up the fences and let brown bears, wolfes etc once again roam The Highlands.

Or did I get this wrong?

 

[redpanda]

I got all fired up when I read this thread, not least because it seemed to me to relate to the issues brought up by me in the thread on the Swedish wolf hunt.

I had never heard about Paul Lister and Alladale until today, but i googled and found out that he is indeed a multimillionare (who invented a fortune from his father who was in the furniture business). He bought the Alladale estate in 2003 and has developed it into a luxury resort. The business in in partnership with an international corporation dealing in luxury vacations for the really wealthy. (I also found out that the two moose currently living at Alladale were bought from Sweden!)

But aren´t you all jumping to conclusions a bit when it comes to the aspirations of Mr Lister´s?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the impression that I get from my googling is that at least the initial intention is to create some very big fenced in enclosures for animals such as wolves, bears, moose etc. Each species in its own enclosure. I did not find any info on immediate plans for creating an enclosure where prey and predator were to be combined (such as in the really big, privately owned, wildlgame reserves in South Africa). I found even less info on plans to eventually opening up the fences and let brown bears, wolfes etc once again roam The Highlands.

Or did I get this wrong?

The plan is to have a 500-acre enclosure to start with where the animal's effects on the landscape will be studied. After a period of time, the animals will be released into a 50,000 acre reserve where the likes of wolves, bears, lynx, moose, boar and wildcat will all roam together. However, Alladale itself is only 23,000 acres so Lister needs one of his neighbours to go into partnership with him before he can set up the wilderness reserve. He has also had rather a problem with ramblers who see the venture as a violation of their "right to roam" so things have progressed rather slower than they could have done.

Lister himself has said that he has no plans to actually begin releasing his animals into the highlands without fences, that was simply my hope of where the project may eventually lead.

Undoubtedly staying at Alladale Lodge will be expensive, however, if you look up the prices for private african game reserves you will see that they are not exactly cheap either so, overall, I support Mr Lister and his venture.