An argument for white tiger extinction

I'd just like to quickly bring up the whole Bengal vs Indian Tiger name thing. Pertinax's argument is that the name Bengal Tiger refers only to the Tigers which live in Bengal and the name Indian Tiger is better because it refers to the Tigers throughout the country. I find this name no better as Bengal Tigers (or whatever you want to call them) also live in Bangladesh, Nepal, and Bhutan so by those standards you'd have to call the Tigers of these areas Bengladesh Tigers, Nepalan Tigers, and Bhutanese Tigers. This simply will confuse people thinking them as different animals. If we're going to name them by geographic name then the most appropriate name is the Southern (Asian) Tiger.

~Thylo:cool:
 
Can you give me a reference for the Strabismus/white gene link theory? 'Mohan' was never described as such, his (inbred) white offspring 'Champak' and 'Chemili' which went to Bristol Zoo certainly weren't, nor to my knowledge were any of their cubs or the other subsequent, increasigly inbred, White Tigers at Bristol.
there are a number of papers on the subject. I made sure I used the word "apparently" in my post because I don't know the truth of the matter but it does seem to be the case. Note that animals suffering from strabismus do not necessarily show as being cross-eyed: they may appear quite normal (although their own visual aspects may be skewed), or the cross-eyed appearance may appear as they age.

These are abstracts:
Convergent strabismus in a white Bengal tiger. [Aust Vet J. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
Genetic abnormality of the visual pathways in a "whi... [Science. 1973] - PubMed - NCBI

Also here: http://www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMagazine/2010/October/7-15.pdf
 
I find this name no better as Bengal Tigers (or whatever you want to call them) also live in Bangladesh, Nepal, and Bhutan so by those standards you'd have to call the Tigers of these areas Bengladesh Tigers, Nepalan Tigers, and Bhutanese Tigers.

There are only two popularly accepted names for Tigers from the Indian subcontinent- Bengal (or 'Royal' Bengal) and Indian. None of the other areas you mention have ever lent their descriptive name to Tigers so that is irrelevant. 'Indian' describes animals from all parts of the Indian Subcontinent, which Bengal, though an accepted alternative, doesn't do as well IMO, as it embraces many Tigers that don't come from 'Bengal'.
 
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there are a number of papers on the subject. I made sure I used the word "apparently" in my post because I don't know the truth of the matter but it does seem to be the case. Note that animals suffering from strabismus do not necessarily show as being cross-eyed: they may appear quite normal (although their own visual aspects may be skewed), or the cross-eyed appearance may appear as they age.

Thanks Chlidionias. I hadn't picked up on this though I've seen the last article before and I note it does specifically state what you said about Strabismus being connected with the White colour. I certainly never saw any apparent sight problems in the Bristol White tigers, but that's not to say they weren't there.
 
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Can we not discuss the Indian or Bengal name? Call it what you want, they're both correct. Just like Amur tigers are also called Siberian, Manchurian or Korean tigers, South Chinese are also called Xiamen, Chinese, and Amoy tigers, Indochinese tigers are also called Corbett's tigers, and Caspian tigers are also called Hyrcanian tigers. Just use the terms you like.

So anyway, what are some other thoughts on white tigers? Or white lions and king cheetahs? :)
 
I know there were (and maybe still are) pure wild white Transvaal Lions in Africa and the majority of king Cheetahs are found in the wild and are rare in captivity. There are a couple of places on ZooChat talking about king Cheetahs. I'm pretty sure they just randomly show up in a cub so they're probably pure. The non-public (:() LEO Conservation Center here in Connecticut has a king Cheetah.

http://www.zoochat.com/2/king-cheetah-census-298807/

Here's LEO's Facebook (sroll down, there's a picture of the king cheetah Mona Lisa):
https://www.facebook.com/LEOZCC?sk=wall&filter=1

~Thylo:cool:
 
I met a man the other day - a South African farmer - who had seen a King Cheetah in the wild.

I tried a bit of one-upmanship by telling him I'd seen a kakapo, but he didn't know what that was so I guess I failed.

:p

Hix
 
But have any wild white tigers been seen, much less added to the captive population, in the past 50 years?

This sums up the whole argument. Where are all of the images of these supposed wild white tigers??? The white gene was very rare, and apart from the current inbred and hybridised captive individuals, probably doesn't exist within the remaining wild population any longer.

Don't even start with Golden tigers.
 
Can we not discuss the Indian or Bengal name? Call it what you want, they're both correct. Just like Amur tigers are also called Siberian, Manchurian or Korean tigers, South Chinese are also called Xiamen, Chinese, and Amoy tigers, Indochinese tigers are also called Corbett's tigers, and Caspian tigers are also called Hyrcanian tigers. Just use the terms you like.

So anyway, what are some other thoughts on white tigers? Or white lions and king cheetahs? :)

Caspian tigers could theoretically be called Siberian/Amur too, as they are (almost) genetically the same thing.
 
This sums up the whole argument. Where are all of the images of these supposed wild white tigers??? The white gene was very rare, and apart from the current inbred and hybridised captive individuals, probably doesn't exist within the remaining wild population any longer.

Don't even start with Golden tigers.

That's what happened to the malensitic Tigers of China (although some Koreans report them from time to time)

~Thylo:cool:
 
Melanistic tigers of China? I have never heard of such a thing and am extremely doubtful that there ever was a melanistic tiger. Where did you hear about this?
 
the majority of king Cheetahs are found in the wild

:confused:

Yes, they are certainly rare in captivity, but why someone would believe "the majority" are found in the wild is entirely unclear to me. Wild sighting are exceptionally rare. I'm not aware of anyone trying to count kings in the wild, and doing so would also be near-impossible since it simply is the expression of a very rare recessive gene. As such, the number likely varies drastically over relatively short periods (even in up periods I doubt there are more than 5 in the wild, and based on extreme rarity of sightings that may well be too much). It depends on the largely random event of a pair carrying the recessive gene breeding, and both passing it on. Of course this is different in captivity where humans can intervene, bringing cheetahs together that likely never would have met under natural conditions.

The thing that unites all these oddities (king cheetah, white tigers, white lions) is that they're the result of rare recessive genes, and all captives originating from very few original carriers; typically a handful or less. You simply can't get any of these without deliberately participating in inbreeding, because both parents have to originate from one of those few bloodlines, which already have been heavily crossed to get the current generation of carriers.

Admittedly I think the white tiger is quite stunning in its appearance, but I can't get past the required inbreeding, or it taking up space that could be used for a pure taxon, e.g. Siberian or Sumatran tiger.
 
Melanistic tigers of China? I have never heard of such a thing and am extremely doubtful that there ever was a melanistic tiger. Where did you hear about this?

There have been reports of melanistic tigers in the South China Tiger subspecies but the gene is believed to be long Extinct. I don't remember how I ran across the information but I'm sure that, if it is/was real, it's uncommon fact.

~Thylo:cool:
 
There have been reports of melanistic tigers in the South China Tiger subspecies but the gene is believed to be long Extinct. I don't remember how I ran across the information but I'm sure that, if it is/was real, it's uncommon fact.
there are various reports from (primarily) the Indian subcontinent and (to a lesser extent) China but never any proper evidence, or at least none that survived to be examined. The Wikipedia article on black tigers gives a run-down of reports and dates.

I can't really see any reason why melanistic tigers wouldn't exist, but there's no firm proof of it......

.....except maybe for this from 2012: Rare black tiger spotted at Similipal Park (ignore the faked photo on the article).
very rare melanistic or black tiger has been photographed in the core area of the Similipal National Park in Odisha.

"We have physical evidence on existence of black tiger inside the core area of the tiger reserve in the Similipal National Park," Forest and Environment minister Debi Prasad Mishta said today.

Stating that the picture of the rare species was captured on camera, Mishra said "We have not heard of the existence of the black tiger anywhere in the country."

..........................................
 
The white gene was very rare, and apart from the current inbred and hybridised captive individuals, probably doesn't exist within the remaining wild population any longer.

It is quite possible the White gene isn't in the Wild population any more, if all the Tigers carrying it have been eliminated e.g. by poaching, then it could well have disappeared. While in a smaller population there's obviously less chance of it reappearing anyway. Though I believe the Indian Wildlife Authorities may plan to release White Tigers from captive breeding into at least a reserve/ partly wild situation.
 
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:confused:

Yes, they are certainly rare in captivity, but why someone would believe "the majority" are found in the wild is entirely unclear to me. Wild sighting are exceptionally rare. I'm not aware of anyone trying to count kings in the wild, and doing so would also be near-impossible since it simply is the expression of a very rare recessive gene. As such, the number likely varies drastically over relatively short periods (even in up periods I doubt there are more than 5 in the wild, and based on extreme rarity of sightings that may well be too much). It depends on the largely random event of a pair carrying the recessive gene breeding, and both passing it on. Of course this is different in captivity where humans can intervene, bringing cheetahs together that likely never would have met under natural conditions.

The thing that unites all these oddities (king cheetah, white tigers, white lions) is that they're the result of rare recessive genes, and all captives originating from very few original carriers; typically a handful or less. You simply can't get any of these without deliberately participating in inbreeding, because both parents have to originate from one of those few bloodlines, which already have been heavily crossed to get the current generation of carriers.

Admittedly I think the white tiger is quite stunning in its appearance, but I can't get past the required inbreeding, or it taking up space that could be used for a pure taxon, e.g. Siberian or Sumatran tiger.

I wouldn't go as low as 5! I agree they're rare but there has to be much more than 5 in the wild! There are maybe 5-10 in captivity anyway. If the king gene is recessive than there's a chance that many wild Cheetahs (and possibly some captive) are carrying the gene but not expressing it. I think it's only a matter of time before the offspring of a carrier expresses the trait. Same with white tiger gene.

Regarding the melanistic tiger, I heard one cub born at the Oklahoma Zoo exhibited melanism. Is there any truth behind this?

~Thylo:cool:
 
I agree they're rare but there has to be much more than 5 in the wild!

Based on what? Wild kings have only ever been reported in S. Zimbabwe, and neighbouring parts of South Africa, Botswana and perhaps Mozambique. Almost exactly equalling the most frequently visited safari region in the world.
There are literally millions of visitors each year: Botswana alone 2+ million per year and Krüger, the hotspot for South African cheetahs and the part of the country where kings have been reported, 1+ million. (the relatively low tourism level in Zimbabwe is quite new; before Mugabe started his land reforms in 2000, a large number of tourists and biologists visted the country every year.)
If there was a relatively high number of wild kings, how come they're almost never seen? Wild cheetahs are relatively easy to see in regions where protected. If you haven't had the chance to visit the region, try searching "cheetah kruger" on flickr and you'll get several thousand photos, revealing their indifference to human observers.

There are maybe 5-10 in captivity anyway.

More. Please see the king cheetah thread and do some general checking before making such claims.

If the king gene is recessive than there's a chance that many wild Cheetahs (and possibly some captive) are carrying the gene but not expressing it. I think it's only a matter of time before the offspring of a carrier expresses the trait. Same with white tiger gene.

Not "if" they are recessive. They're known to be. A bit of basic genetics and statistics: When dealing with a rare recessive gene, under natural conditions heterozygous carriers will always outnumber homozygous carriers overall: Heterozygous X normal = 50% heterozygous and 50% normal; Heterozygous X heterozygous = 25% homozygous, 25% normal and 50% heterozygous; Homozygous X heterozygous = 50% homozygous and 50% heterozygous; Homozygous X normal = 100% heterozygous; etc.

If there, as you suggest is possible, were "many" cheetahs that carry the gene in the wild, basic statistics reveals that we'd expect to see a reasonable number of wild kings too. We don't. Same for white tiger.
 
Melanistic tigers of China? I have never heard of such a thing and am extremely doubtful that there ever was a melanistic tiger. Where did you hear about this?

I haven't heard of melanistic tigers reported in China but there are stories of "Maltese" tigers in China. This link shows an artist's rendering. I had always thought the stories of the melanistic tigers were from India.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_tiger]Maltese tiger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
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