Knowsley Safari Park animal culling out-rage

Ok, this must be a slow news day or there are darker issues at play here, here is a quote from the BBC news website

" Ms Boyd left the park in September after five years providing images for its guide book and other publicity materials"

September, ok several months ago

Yet 'The Sun' the says

'She raged last night after quitting her job: "One morning I heard a gunshot and looked out to see a beautiful antelope I'd known for years being downed.' (10/01/11)

making it sound like a recent event.

Then you also read from The Sun's page

"Penny, of Hawick, Scotland, claimed standards at the park nosedived after her partner - who worked as curator - lost his job last year. "

So why is this only coming to light now?

Issues with proceedures, of course, but other issues as well perhaps??
 
I have to echo what everyone else says here, other than failing to dispose of animal carcasses within reasonable time I dont see a REAL issue here. I'd frankly take what the park has to say as the truth over CAPS/The Sun anyday.
 
Right, I do not agree with culling. I think when you get to that point it's a clear sign that your animal management has failed somewhere. They also seem to suggest baboons being culled, which with complicated group structures and family ties seems a very silly idea. Especially considering how simple birth control is in primates.
However, the carcasses were clearly moved. If I was dumping random stuff in a wheely bin it would be in the bin, or at least close, what use would it be for me to scatter the bodies hapharzardly metres away from the bin? It really is ridiculous to imagine that it may have happened like that.
Lastly, I'm a little confused, when I worked at a zoo we kept every dead animal, no matter how small, in the freezer until someone was available to determine cause of death. These have no scars to indicate autopsy. Has the system changed?
 
The question is not (seeing as there are actually people on here discussing photos being doctored) whether the antelope had its head propped up on a bone 'for show', but actually, how on earth can a reputable park be so lax about the way it deals with dead animals that a photographer is able to go round taking pictures (or wickedly assembling grim dioramas, as some would have it) of deer carcasses laying around or primates in bin liners.

The lax attitude shows a total lack of respect for the lives, and deaths, of the animals that generate the park's income and the wages of the keepers who work there.
 
johnstoni said:
The lax attitude shows a total lack of respect for the lives, and deaths, of the animals that generate the park's income and the wages of the keepers who work there.
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My thoughts exactly. It sounds like poor management is at play with regard to the control of breeding and disposal of dead/culled animals.

There appears to be a culture of poor treatment of safari park animals in comparison to zoo's in my opinion. Could never imagine the likes of the aspinalls or marwell treating their animals in this way.
 
Never mind if photos have been doctored or if ex employees have a grudge against their former employers, could we please establish why these animals were killed , were they old, stillborn or sick or were they just victims of a cull, just like the red river hogs at a zoo which is soon to be entrusted with giant pandas?
 
Paradoxurus said:
Why on earth would Penny Boyd, a long term animal keeper herself (she used to run the animal sanctuary at Burstow), go straight to the Sun and CAPS? Surely if she had serious concerns she would have reported the Park to the council and BIAZA above all others. Her partner, Nick Ellerton, also has a long association with zoos and I can't imagine him fuelling such a charity's campaigns. Besides, he has a reputation for triggerhappiness himself.

I'll maintain that zoos should be completely open about culling animals - then there would be no story.

Appart from not containing the carcasses I don't see what the Park has done wrong. And I would agree that the bodies look nicely arranged (see how the Blackbuck's head is nealy propped up on a bone).
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How artistic, contact the Tate Gallery at once!
 
Javan Rhino said:
A further statement from the park on their website:

Further Response to Allegations | Safari Park News | Knowsley Safari Park
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3 points from that article:

(1) The fierce defence against allegations of culling of surplus stock does not actually deny they cull surplus stock. It denies they 'regularly' cull surplus stock, and focuses on movements out of the collection to support this. I am not criticising culling in this instance, indeed it is difficult to manage large herds of deer without occasional culling.

(2) Since when was it okay to kill an animal because it was killing other members in the group? Surely a baboon could be rehoused with a small group of non-breeding adults and still enjoy some quality of life?

(3) The level of training that keepers have had before using firearms is not disclosed, only that 'no offence has been committed' and that no 'untrained' keepers have been using live animals for 'target practice'. I feel that, implicit in that defence is the possibility that 'trained' keepers have been shooting animals in an appropriate way. However, it is unclear why keepers would need to shoot anything outside of an emergency, given the following paragraph where they state that none of the animals photographed had been culled. It was telling that the park did not say 'our keepers do not shoot our animals'.

I do not think this issue is about culling, however the park appear to take a remarkably anti-culling position in terms of their defence of these photographs. I wonder how true that is. I think the defence is very cleverly worded, I believe because, like most collections with large ungulates, there is some culling, but the park is clearly loathe to step into the spotlight defending this practice with photographs of unbelievably sloppy practice around storage of animal carcasses fresh in the minds of the public.
 
johnstoni said:
(2) Since when was it okay to kill an animal because it was killing other members in the group? Surely a baboon could be rehoused with a small group of non-breeding adults and still enjoy some quality of life?
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It has come to my notice in recent months, that while some Zoos in the UK make every effort to place their surplus Primates (including bad mixers and socially inept animals) in the various primate Sanctuaries which will happily give these unwanted monkeys a home, some prefer to euthanase, instead of rehoming.
 
Pertinax said:
It has come to my notice in recent months, that while some Zoos in the UK make every effort to place their surplus Primates (including bad mixers and socially inept animals) in the various primate Sanctuaries which will happily give these unwanted monkeys a home, some prefer to euthanase, instead of rehoming.
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...and what would be worse, I wonder - living out your years in that place in Wales, or being humanely culled? Not nice to end up in a black bin bag, perhaps, but this is a carcass that we are talking about. It makes no difference to the baboon what happens to its body, once it has been killed.
 
Tarzan;
'just like the red river hogs at a zoo which is soon to be entrusted with giant pandas?'

Are you suggesting Edinburgh can't be trusted with Giant Panda's?

Back to the thread, I admit the pictures look bad but it definitely seems like a case of disgruntled ex employee to me. If you were really acting out because you cared about animal welfare then I'm sure there are far better places to go to than the Sun newspaper. Most people I know that read it (occasionally even myself) are aware of it's reputation and know they go for the dramatic.

Also, if Knowsley was such a bad place you'd think the lady involved would be able to come up with a whole dossier of errors, mistreatment and poor practice, (rather than one single episode she choses to air now it suits her), and thus be far more damning in her actions.

However, I'm not condoning what has gone on, just expressing my viewpoint on the motivations behind the exposure. I sincerely hope surplus animals were at least tried to find new homes for (though sadly I doubt it). If you cannot house the numbers of stock you are breeding then surely you have to start looking at birth control rather than culling?

Someone also mentioned they couldn't imagine Aspinalls or Marwell doing the same thing. (Sorry can't remember who). While that's as maybe true, I've no doubt that all zoos have some shady secrets or past discretions they wouldn't want anyone knowing about. I'm not saying regular occurences, just the occasional one off mistakes/errors/lapses in judgement etc that must surely arise when doing such a different job to what most of us experience. To the people around the collections, dead stock (however it may have died) is still a more 'normal' thing to see, whereas if I were to see a dead animal it would probably have a lasting impression on me. The fact is, zoo animals die. They're meant to be disposed of in a certain manner if not going for post mortem. Knowsley clearly slipped up but I for one hope they aren't too vilified, if only because I don't beleive the intentions of the instigator are solely in the interests of animal welfare.
 
Oh yeah, sorry, as an after thought. I love how the sun reports on this as if it's a major campaigner for world wildlife and yet as soon as a white tiger or lion is born, or there's an unbelieveably 'cute' picture of a baby ape giving a milk drink to a tiger/lion cub, it splashes said pictures around like they're a victory for conservation!!!

I reiterate, the Sun is not in any position to start judging animal collections until it understands a bit more about them.
 
sooty mangabey said:
...and what would be worse, I wonder - living out your years in that place in Wales, or being humanely culled? Not nice to end up in a black bin bag, perhaps, but this is a carcass that we are talking about. It makes no difference to the baboon what happens to its body, once it has been killed.
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I'm not taking any issue with the body being in a bin liner.

However, I do think some primates may be needlessly destroyed when other places would willingly give them a home. The Welsh sanctuary already has baboons, while there are other Monkey sanctuaries such as MonkeyWorld and the new IOW Monkey Sanctuary, both of which have good reputations. I'm just pointing out the options here.
 
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I am surprised so many here seem to take issue with a perfectly legitimate form of collection management, I personally wish this kind of action would be taken before even considering moving animals to so-called animal refuge centers, those I have experience of are underfunded, overcrowded and vastly inexperienced, abnormal behaviour and conditions relating to poor husbandry being rife.

That said every effort should be made to ensure you are not left with large amounts of surplus in the first place.
 
amy said:
Tarzan;
'just like the red river hogs at a zoo which is soon to be entrusted with giant pandas?'

Are you suggesting Edinburgh can't be trusted with Giant Panda's?

Back to the thread, I admit the pictures look bad but it definitely seems like a case of disgruntled ex employee to me. If you were really acting out because you cared about animal welfare then I'm sure there are far better places to go to than the Sun newspaper. Most people I know that read it (occasionally even myself) are aware of it's reputation and know they go for the dramatic.

Also, if Knowsley was such a bad place you'd think the lady involved would be able to come up with a whole dossier of errors, mistreatment and poor practice, (rather than one single episode she choses to air now it suits her), and thus be far more damning in her actions.

However, I'm not condoning what has gone on, just expressing my viewpoint on the motivations behind the exposure. I sincerely hope surplus animals were at least tried to find new homes for (though sadly I doubt it). If you cannot house the numbers of stock you are breeding then surely you have to start looking at birth control rather than culling?

Someone also mentioned they couldn't imagine Aspinalls or Marwell doing the same thing. (Sorry can't remember who). While that's as maybe true, I've no doubt that all zoos have some shady secrets or past discretions they wouldn't want anyone knowing about. I'm not saying regular occurences, just the occasional one off mistakes/errors/lapses in judgement etc that must surely arise when doing such a different job to what most of us experience. To the people around the collections, dead stock (however it may have died) is still a more 'normal' thing to see, whereas if I were to see a dead animal it would probably have a lasting impression on me. The fact is, zoo animals die. They're meant to be disposed of in a certain manner if not going for post mortem. Knowsley clearly slipped up but I for one hope they aren't too vilified, if only because I don't beleive the intentions of the instigator are solely in the interests of animal welfare.
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No Amy, I am not suggesting Edinburgh are not to be trusted with the giant pandas, I have been a regular visitor to this zoo for forty years and I am looking forward to seeing them there as much as everyone else. I was only stating a fact, the red river hoglets were culled and not as a last resort, which has made me annoyed resulting in my respect for this zoo to be now tarnished. Yes culling of animals goes on at zoos, however , it only appears to come to light when it is leaked to the press, obviously they are not going to shout about it from the roof tops as it is not pleasant for the visitors
staff members and most importantly the animals themselves. I most certainly accept that when an animal is old or too sick euthanasia should take place, but certainly not put a healthy young animal down without even trying to find it a new home at a reputable zoo, wildlife park or sanctuary, culling should be a LAST resort when no other options are available. P.S. I am still awaiting with interest what the future holds for the second litter of red river hoglets at Edinburgh zoo.
 
ok it just seemed like quite a barbed comment to me. And I agree it sucks when a place you hold in high regard lets you down. Have been to edinburgh but I'm not as familiar with their goings on as yourself but am I reading it right that they either have a second litter of RR hogs or one is on the way? This could be a minefield.
 
amy said:
ok it just seemed like quite a barbed comment to me. And I agree it sucks when a place you hold in high regard lets you down. Have been to edinburgh but I'm not as familiar with their goings on as yourself but am I reading it right that they either have a second litter of RR hogs or one is on the way? This could be a minefield.
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I apologise if my remark appeared to be barbed, but when it comes to sticking up for animals I can't help myself. Edinburgh zoo currently have a second litter of red river hoglets on the premises, I would like to ensure that they do not end up being culled like the previous litter, I know I keep going on about it but if these delightful young animals can remain alive at Edinburgh or at an alternative establishment of good reputation I will be pleased, and it certainly does not bother me if people want to call me a pain in the neck for speaking up for the hoglets for quite frankly my dear I couldn't give a damn!
 
sooty mangabey said:
...and what would be worse, I wonder - living out your years in that place in Wales, or being humanely culled? Not nice to end up in a black bin bag, perhaps, but this is a carcass that we are talking about. It makes no difference to the baboon what happens to its body, once it has been killed.
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Actually I think that sanctuary actually has acceptable facilities for its baboons.

Anyhow, as Pertinax points out, there are other establishments that could take on problem primates in the UK. However, what's wrong with, somewhere on their 500 or so acres, Knowsley holding one or two smaller, non-breeding baboon groups comprised of individuals not able to live in the main troop?
 
amy said:
Also, if Knowsley was such place you'd think the lady involved would be able to come up with a whole dossier of errors, mistreatment and poor practice, (rather than one single episode she choses to air now it suits her), and thus be far more damning in her actions.
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The article suggested to me, if indeed this is factual, that a fairly substantial dossier was given to the council with the subsequent involvement of the police. My interpretation of the information available is that the photographer waitied until an investigation had been carried out before going to the press, which would explain why she left in September and the article has only just come out. I would argue that is fairer than attempting to influence a police and local authority investigation by going to the press while this is being carried out.
 
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