Animal intelligence

[Leptonyx]

@ zooman: I'm sure there are definetely examples where successful reproduction is an indication of intelligence...we learned of "sneaker" cichlid (sp?) and salmon fish that will dash in and fertilize a female right under her mate's nose...and birds have extra-pair bonds too.

Reptiles can "control" if they get too hot or too cold by moving to different places...so I guess that would fall under intelligence by "control of environment"?...but again that just ties in with the whole "intelligence vs instinct" argument...which right now I have no idea how to distinguish the two

The medicine/education argument would be interesting to see I'm reading Susan McCarth's book on how animals learn...and it's really fascinating. Maybe the degree to which an animal can modify it's behaviour over one generation or something? I have no idea

 

[zooman]

I will get this book.

Maybe we could have a book club discussion thread?

 

[Leptonyx]

Hehe sorry zooman- I apparently made up a term . Female birds sometimes cheat on their mates- so I was speculating that the male she's cheating with might be more intelligent (he won't have to raise the babies with her- the females' poor unsuspecting mate will do it for him - he can sow his seeds onto other females too) ...but then again, the cheating male may just have it in his genes, and so some might argue it could be instinct (hence the confusion on my end- between "instinct" and "intelligence" )

The book is called "Becoming a Tiger: How Baby Animals Learn to Live in the Wild"- by Susan **McCarthy**. She was co-author of the "When Elephants Weep" book and it's written in very much the same style with lots of interesting examples to illustrate how animals might learn. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[djaeon]

There was a really good article in the National Geographic some time this year (will have to go find my copy later for the issue) that looked at animal intelegence and compared various animals. deffinatly worth a read it may still be on their website.


this is the link to the main article, a photo gallery, video and links to other similar studies
Animal Minds - National Geographic Magazine

I'm pretty sure that was the March, 2008 issue, with the picture of a dog on the cover. I agree, it was very interesting.

 

[mjmorg89]

Personally I think intelligence can only be described as voluntary actions. Adapting to an environment or 'cheating' on a mate I don't think can be classed as voluntary actions as all animals (humans included) are only here so that they can survive and ultimately reproduce. However the way in which certain animals do these things can be voluntary, especially when a problem is presented that has multiple solutions e.g. chimps using sticks to obtain out of reach food. Yes this can be viewed as a human trait as we see the use of tools as intelligent but I think even if we were not here to be compared to or do the comparing, animals would still have these choices and problems to overcome and the ones that manage to work out and chose the most efficient way of achieving the desired outcome can be viewed as having some intelligence.

 

[zooman]

Personally I think intelligence can only be described as voluntary actions.

Simple and to the point.

I really like this "voluntary actions", and your thoughts on instinct? mjmorg 89

 

[mjmorg89]

Instinct is just what's there, it's what makes you take your hand off a hot surface or run away from something you're scared of. While they are both sensible and 'intelligent' decisions, no conscious thought really goes into those actions. I think the easiest way to explain it is instinct is generally the fastest simplest way to achieve something (that would otherwise caused you detriment e.g. finding food) and intelligence is a voluntary choice to improve the situation for your benefit either by making a task easier or more enjoyable or whatever it may be.

 

[DyerMaker]

Heard the same about crows, using crosswalks as nutcrackers. They have also been known to use straws as tools.

I think we have a very limited definition of intelligence. When it comes to reading body language, dogs are streets ahead of us.

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

Crocodiles being the most intelligent reptiles ( not saying reptiles are stupid) can actually memorise routines by particular animals or humans. That is why whenever you camp near crocodile infested waters your're advised to get your water from somewhere different each day.

 

[Sun Wukong]

(...)can actually memorise routines by particular animals or humans.

That's actually nothing extraoridinary-quite a bunch of reptiles commonly kept as pets, like Bearded Dragons, Green Iguanas or some tortoises/turtles, and even some snakes, seem to learn to associate certain persons with certain routines-may it be the keeper (=food) or the vet (=pain). And in terms of "intelligent" reptiles-think of crocodile lizards or larger monitors (Komodo Dragons!).

@mjmorg89: So you would define intelligence as the flexible reactions when confronted to solve a problem-i.e. being able to choose and use an alternative to an otherwise purely instinctive action?

 

[mjmorg89]

@sun wukong - Yes that's pretty much my thoughts, but I think also that if an animal has the ability to not only use an alternative but be able to create one, then it can be seen as intelligent. Your 'definition'?

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

mjmorg89 I think you have hit it right there, intelligence I personally think in itself is very hard to describe. But particular animals have in-orn instincts or abilities that may come off as amazing... and in the eyes of many perhaps intelligence. I'm sorry I'm kinda lost for words here. Hopefully it will come to me.

 

[Sun Wukong]

@mjmorg89: My 'definition'? At least in regard to human intelligence, I'd say various combinations of the ability to
-learn and (maybe even) teach
-plan
-reason
-communicate and use the comunication to convey even more complex aspects
-sort out problems/tasks independently or in cooperation, which might involve abstract thinking

...as well as several individual traits like creativity, wisdom, "common sense", language thinking, mental flexibility etc.

 

[DyerMaker]

I used to have a pet iguana, and his intelligence was extraordinary, which was amusing when he'd figure out how to get out of his cage.

And he had the routine down lie clockwork, knowing exactly when I was going to feed him.

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

wow! smart Iguana.

Are all brains structured the same way as in they have all the same parts but some parts are inactive or are small in scale. e,g we only use around 10% of our brain whilst crocodilians use 85-90%. I'm assuming that different animals have different parts and so have extra parts? But there has to be some sort of area that all species conatin right?

e.g the cerebral cortex. ?

 

[taun]

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Orangutans learn to trade favours

These articles don't mean much unless you see a more detailed report on how the study was carried out.

 

[zooman]

Its interesting that Agriculture is scarecly 5000 years old, mankind at least 5,000,000. Agriculture has had such incredible change in the past 100 years. We have made tremendous changes to our enviroment. So rapidly that we are destroying it! Something no animal in history has ever done before.

So animal inteligence how to assess it? Is it how well we evolve to adept to our enviroment.As Mankind has done where we have changed our enviroment to suit us. As we become fatter, lazier, unemployed not self supporting. Yet we are convinced that we have come so far in the last 5000 years. Things are so much better?

Has the l want it now life style. Taken away all evoloution for mankind. As it is evoloution that gave us the GIraffe and the bee also very tall coniferous trees. These things took millions of years to evolve and they did so in harmony with the enviroment.

I cannot think of 1 thing that mankind has done in harmony with his enviroment in the last 5000 years.

Are we actually the dumbest animal on the planet??? Given we use the criteria for intelligence is harmony with the enviroment.