Another thread about a new zoo...

nicholas said:
Too many visitors run from enclosure to enclosure, barely staying long enough to remember what colour the animal had. I my view, that's neither the visitors fault, nor the animals (not being interesting enough). It all comes down to how it's presented.
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Very true. Having (visible) staff around to talk to visitors does make huge difference already, but with guided tours you can have an even greater influence on your visitors.

nicholas said:
I would also like to investigate the possibility of having ringtailed vontsira or narrow-striped boky as part of this mixed exhibit.
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I'm pretty confident ring-tailed vontsira (and probably narrow-striped mongooses too) are not really suited for walk-through enclosures. And they can be almost impossible to source without paying a particular British chap a not-so-small fortune. ;)
 
Mr. Zootycoon said:
I'm pretty confident ring-tailed vontsira (and probably narrow-striped mongooses too) are not really suited for walk-through enclosures. And they can be almost impossible to source without paying a particular British chap a not-so-small fortune. ;)
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Why do you think that? I would hope both would be quite safe when doing tours, and at least wild vontsiras are sometimes quite curious of people, and certainly not not shy, so that's why I want to explore the possibility at least.

They're not a dime a dozen, but I've been offered both species in the past so I don't think it would be impossible to get them. I don't know how experienced you are in the zoo world, but most people would be surprised by how hard it is to find holders even for some very rare species.
 
nicholas said:
Why do you think that? I would hope both would be quite safe when doing tours, and at least wild vontsiras are sometimes quite curious of people, and certainly not not shy, so that's why I want to explore the possibility at least.
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They are very agile, very fast, not shy and extremely curious. In other words: keeping them inside a walk-through enclosure might be a problem. They might also try to find out what visitors taste like.
 
Mr. Zootycoon said:
They are very agile, very fast, not shy and extremely curious. In other words: keeping them inside a walk-through enclosure might be a problem. They might also try to find out what visitors taste like.
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Thanks Mr. Zootycoon, I appreciate the input.

The same could be said for squirrel monkeys though. With careful planning, and a backup plan, it might be worth a shot.
 
For a species of lemur, may I recommend coquerel's sifaka? They are very charming and fun to interact with, and zoo nerds will enjoy a species of lemur that isn't ring-tailed or red ruffed. The only problem I could see is them being harder to source.
 
pachyderm pro said:
For a species of lemur, may I recommend coquerel's sifaka? They are very charming and fun to interact with, and zoo nerds will enjoy a species of lemur that isn't ring-tailed or red ruffed. The only problem I could see is them being harder to source.
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Especially impossible in Europe ;), even Crowned sifaka would be very hard to obtain ;)
 
nicholas said:
Thanks to everyone offering encouraging words and scepticism about my plans. I try to analyse everything I read. My plans are not only something I've worked up in my head on my own, but actually my own experience from working in zoos. Watching visitors and giving guided tours. Too many visitors run from enclosure to enclosure, barely staying long enough to remember what colour the animal had. I my view, that's neither the visitors fault, nor the animals (not being interesting enough). It all comes down to how it's presented. If the average visitor gets to see an animal close enough, and the animal is expressing a natural behaviour, then it won't matter the slightest if it's rednecked wallaby or a pademelon. My zoo will be aimed at average visitors (but zoo-nerds will be welcome and zoochatters will have free entry ;)) and it will aim at pleasing everyone. I know it won't please everyone. I'm not that naive. Some people will think the guided tour is too long. Some will think it's too short. There will be endless things that someone might complain on, and at the planning stage here, there will be endless things that you could do differently (please though, continue with your suggestions for changes, I truly appreciate the feedback and your thoughts). But, my point about pleasing everyone is about the attention to detail. Enough about that, I'm gonna describe the enclosure for the first wild animal, which will be Macaca sylvanus.

You'll enter the forest which is made up of large pines and some deciduous trees, ferns and a few large rocks. It's not too far from how the cedar and oak forests in northern Morocco look. You will walk among the macaques and the guide will talk about them, their behaviour and their plight in the wild. To make the exhibit even more interesting, I will have some dreaded domestics there too. The visitors will of course not be able to touch the macaques, but I hope their wish to pet something will be fulfilled by having goats and miniature donkeys there. If it works well the young barbary macaques and the young goats might play together, and if it doesn't work with babies I still think this mixed exhibit will be very popular.

From here you will walk into the next walk-though exhibit. It will be almost entirely made up of deciduous trees of all sizes, with some tropical looking plants planted to make the experience more jungle like. There will be little or no undergrowth, just leaf litter and sand, again to simulate the appearance of a rainforest, or tropical forest. There will be a few more open places, where sun allows the radiated tortoises to bask. I'll also try to put heat lambs underneath logs in thicker forest to allow them to have more choices. They will only be exhibited outdoors, and then of course only when the weather allows it. There will be a group of lemurs, which species will have to be decided later, depending on what is available and in need of holders. I would also like to investigate the possibility of having ringtailed vontsira or narrow-striped boky as part of this mixed exhibit.

More exhibits to follow.
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I have experience of Boky-Boky eating food intended for other animals and getting obese. Also, I would not trust any mongoose species not to try and eat a tortoise.
However, Meller's Duck and Madagascar Teal go well with Lemurs.
 
pachyderm pro said:
For a species of lemur, may I recommend coquerel's sifaka? They are very charming and fun to interact with, and zoo nerds will enjoy a species of lemur that isn't ring-tailed or red ruffed. The only problem I could see is them being harder to source.
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I don't think I stated that the zoo will be in Europe, so pachyderm pro is exused :). Sifakas are cool, but this plan for a zoo is something that's actually in the works, so dreaming about sifakas is not something I do now. If I had made this thread 15 years ago, then sifakas would deficiently have been on the list of species. Now, with age, I stick to rabbits.
 
Nikola Chavkosk said:
But then in what you, as a zoo-founder, will enjoy, when you in your zoo, have only such domestic animals/ - it won't be interesting or inspirative for you as a zoo nerd. Unless the goal of opening such a zoo is purely for earning money - making business, thats another thing.
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The joy of engaging visitors in the wonders of nature, making them more passionate of animals. Having a on where to teach people about sustainable use or resources. The joy of giving people an experience that makes them happy, that they will tell their friends about. The joy of having enough visitors to make enough monkey to contribute to conservation projects.

Civets are fine, but they won't make people come to a zoo. I really don't care about about how rare an animal is captivity, nor do the people I hope to educate.
 
I have been thoroughly enjoying this thread, and I very much hope that the zoo that you are describing, Nicholas, can indeed get off the ground.

I wanted to return to the idea of educating visitors through a guided tour, which, in my opinion, misunderstands the reason why people visit zoos in the first place. By definition, anyone on this site is genuinely interested in natural history, and, as such, will be receptive to learning about what they are seeing - even if, like many, they feel constrained by doing so in a group, or they may struggle with the "one size fits all" approach that such a tour would inevitably offer.

However, if I were to go to, say, an art museum, the thought of a tour would be a real deterrent. I don't want to be told stuff. I am very happy to remain largely ignorant. At risk of sounding like a real charlatan, I don't really want to learn a great deal. Instead, I want to potter round at my own pace, see some things, react to them in my own way, spend some time with my family or friends with the nice backdrop of some works of art, and that is it. I think most people have the same attitude towards zoos - that is, that they are for something different, something other than learning (in a straightforward way) about the animals on display.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. In fact, I think it is good that, for every visitor, there is a different motivation. But I do think it means that, for a conventional-looking zoo, a tour-only approach is not desireable (I think that for a smaller, more niche establish, such as that being offered by @Batto, things are rather different.

Incidentally, this is also my objection to the Hannover approach to building a zoo. The design of Hannover seems to encourage one particular response, one particular narrative, for visitors, with the possibility that not everyone will want to see this in this way, to respond in that way, being ignored.
 
I understand your point, sooty. Nevertheless, an art museum also offers guided tours, just as zoos do. If a zoo can include both options (like most major zoos do), there's something there for everyone. Unlike an art gallery, however, (zoo) animals are living creatures. And the irresponsible and sometimes even lethal behaviour of quite a number of visitors makes me wonder whether guided tours are less stressful for all involved and from a ethical pov, a fairer deal for the animals than the screaming, obnoxious masses you encounter on busy zoo days. The visitors I've had so far also remarked that my tour taught them more (and in a more memorable way) than the zoos they've been to.
 
sooty mangabey said:
I have been thoroughly enjoying this thread, and I very much hope that the zoo that you are describing, Nicholas, can indeed get off the ground.

I wanted to return to the idea of educating visitors through a guided tour, which, in my opinion, misunderstands the reason why people visit zoos in the first place. By definition, anyone on this site is genuinely interested in natural history, and, as such, will be receptive to learning about what they are seeing - even if, like many, they feel constrained by doing so in a group, or they may struggle with the "one size fits all" approach that such a tour would inevitably offer.

However, if I were to go to, say, an art museum, the thought of a tour would be a real deterrent. I don't want to be told stuff. I am very happy to remain largely ignorant. At risk of sounding like a real charlatan, I don't really want to learn a great deal. Instead, I want to potter round at my own pace, see some things, react to them in my own way, spend some time with my family or friends with the nice backdrop of some works of art, and that is it. I think most people have the same attitude towards zoos - that is, that they are for something different, something other than learning (in a straightforward way) about the animals on display.

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. In fact, I think it is good that, for every visitor, there is a different motivation. But I do think it means that, for a conventional-looking zoo, a tour-only approach is not desireable (I think that for a smaller, more niche establish, such as that being offered by @Batto, things are rather different.

Incidentally, this is also my objection to the Hannover approach to building a zoo. The design of Hannover seems to encourage one particular response, one particular narrative, for visitors, with the possibility that not everyone will want to see this in this way, to respond in that way, being ignored.
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Thanks for those thoughts Sooty Mangabay. I can't say that I think you're wrong in any of your statements. The best thing would probably be to offer both tours and the ability to walk around at your own pace. Maybe I will do that, there is still time to change plans. Things evolve. I might see that just tours doesn't work.

There are how ever many reasons why I plan to start with just guided tours. Managebility being one, as this will be run on the side of my main income.
 
The collection you have planned is a great way to start a zoo (Don't know about how easy it is to get the more exotic species in Europe)

I noticed you haven't said anything about birds. Do you have any plans for that? I love seeing birds after watching large, bulky elephants and tall giraffes(Or in your case cute rabbits and playful monkeys). Something about birds make a zoo seem more...exotic. Thats just me though.
 
I'm a bird nerd, but birds are high maintenance and usually score low on the visitor experience chart. I won't have a lot of birds in the opening stages at least. There are ways to make birds interesting to the public, but there are no short cuts. Exhibiting birds in a successful way is expensive and labour intense.
 
It is normal for zoo gardens to have domestics when they open: and honestly I can't see why not. Sometimes people think a public zoo is a private fanciers collection, but on crack. People come for the aaw factor, to laugh at monkeys or parrots, to be enthralled by danger at a safe distance. Or to interact hands on with the animals. Domestics supply the latter and the saw factor. Shed city grade animals like squirrel monkeys and short clawed otters add the fun aspect and a degree of exoticism. And the income they draw in then supports anything more hardcore or offbeat.

That said zoos trafitionally use duck ponds and small passerine aviaries as space fillers?
 
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