Welsh Mountain Zoo Appalling Off-Show Aviary

[Nanook]

Please guys, you have got to be kidding, you are all giving the idea that if it is off show or in breeding situation then it is acceptable, in my opinion there is no excuse whatsoever to have off show areas filthy dirty for any reason, regardless of whether or not the birds or whatever animal live in an enclosure the water should be good enough for the keeper to drink, that should be the standard to go by, if the animals cannot be kept in clean conditions for breeding or whatever else then they should not be bred, are harris hawks needed that bad??

The water in the container was in an unacceptable condition yes..... but
if the aviary was for breeding these birds, as it appears, then as little disturbance as possible is required, it is normal practice in raptor aviaries ,where breeding bird are, to have these feeder pipes for food at least. Though I admit I have never seen them used to supply water too and I would question whether they are indeed an acceptable way in which to provide water if it ends up in this state ?
My main issue would be with the foul water. The general mess is actually fairly normal for an off-show breeding aviary for birds of prey which can be by nature quite messy in terms of faeces and the remains of their diet, feathers etc.. in a breeding situation. The birds themselves appear to be in very good condition. As I said before on-show enclosures are often very different from off-show enclosures, not just in their design but in their appearance, and this can include the cleanliness of them, not always but especially in cases like this where they are used to provide a good degree of seclusion and privacy for breeding animals.

 

[Steve Robinson]

As a zoo owner I am surprised, and disturbed, to see that the initial poster saw fit to create this thread without discussing his concerns with the zoo itself.

Perhaps his pre-existing opinion of this zoo prevented him from seeking informed input before making this public criticism?

 

[Pertinax]

This thread is now closed as its really a matter for the original poster to take up as he sees fit.

 

[Sparrow12]

Appalling aviary response

This post has just been brought to my attention otherwise I would of responded earlier. Firstly I would like to mention that these hawks are my own personal birds on the private land behind my cottage and in no way are they linked to the Welsh Mountain Zoo. I apologise as the photo doesn't look pleasant, but in no way is this a reflection on how this seclusion aviary normally looks. At the time of the photo the chicks had literally just fledged and disturbance was being kept to a minimum as the chicks get easily upset and bounce round and are quite prone to injury. What didn't help was my quick fix of a perch that led to my school boy error of putting the perch over the water. That led to faecal matter and food ending up in it and spoiling it very quickly.I always clean the aviary as soon as the chicks are old enough to tolerate. When the parent birds are not breeding they are flown.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Thanks for clearing this matter up openly for us, Sparrow12 I shall link this thread into the current WMZ news thread so that any interested parties know this is in relation to the prior discussion, as it might go unnoticed in the current location.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Thanks for clearing all of this up, Sparrow12. I feel as though I must offer you an apology for immediately assuming that these birds were not being taken care of well despite having pretty much zero knowledge on birds of prey. I'm sure you're doing a good job taking care of your birds and I'm sorry that you had to come onto here to clear your (and the zoo's) name simply because someone went where they shouldn't and caught you at a bad time! I hope you do forgive us.

~Thylo

 

[kiang]

Thank you Sparrow for coming into the forum and putting your side of the story.

 

[TARZAN]

It really says something about the calibre of some of the people who post on here. Not only are they content with snooping about someone's private living quarters of an area that is not even a part of the zoo, they take photos, post it on here and threaten to report this zoo to the local authority, R.S.P.B. etc.Thankfully good sense has prevailed and the true account of events has been explained.It not only says something about some of the members on here but also about some who moderate this site, these accusations have been allowed to remain although the thread has been closed, nothing has been deleted unlike on another thread where member's postings have been deleted when all they have done is speak up for decency , or defend those who have spoken up for the truth and decency in answer to a shyster, I cannot say I am to happy about this and at times on zoo chat I very much feel like A FISH out of water.

 

[dean]

I'm pleased this has been cleared up, I think it is in the interests of not only zoochat but the zoo world in general if anything that appears to be detrimental to any zoo is looked into by the zoo visitor who sees by contacting the zoo with his/her concerns and any photos. If the zoo then dismisses the claim by all means post it here.
But remember we have an army of people who are just waiting with any little excuse to close down zoos, and though they may not do it directly they can generate enough bad publicity to stop visitors - one zoo chatter did just that after seeing the original post saying he was going to WMZ but would go elsewhere instead. elsewhere- the bottom line is think before we post and do so with any detrimental story as a last resort.

I don't and won't condone bad animal practise, but I also hate one sided arguments we get enough of those in this world from anti animal keepers.

Also Welcome to the club TARZAN I have spent my whle life feeling like a fish out of water.

 

[kiang]

It really says something about the calibre of some of the people who post on here. Not only are they content with snooping about someone's private living quarters of an area that is not even a part of the zoo, they take photos, post it on here and threaten to report this zoo to the local authority, R.S.P.B. etc.Thankfully good sense has prevailed and the true account of events has been explained.It not only says something about some of the members on here but also about some who moderate this site, these accusations have been allowed to remain although the thread has been closed, nothing has been deleted unlike on another thread where member's postings have been deleted when all they have done is speak up for decency , or defend those who have spoken up for the truth and decency in answer to a shyster, I cannot say I am to happy about this and at times on zoo chat I very much feel like A FISH out of water.

I think it is fair to say every member would have had the same initial reaction, but as you correctly point out common sense has prevailed.
If the initial posts had been deleted, then surely Sparrow would never have had the chance to put the record straight.
I do get the feeling you like a good argument and a bit of provocation, one of the reasons we have a private message facility, to let of some of that steam, but at the end of the day, if you don't like it here........

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I think it is fair to say every member would have had the same initial reaction, but as you correctly point out common sense has prevailed.

Not so sure every member would attempt to get access to offshow and/or private areas to photograph them in the first place though; this being my objection to the initial post as uploading images obtained illicitly onto Zoochat, however concerning they seemed, struck me as being on shaky legal ground to me.

 

[OrangePerson]

Maybe a moderator could put a link at the end of the original thread to the response, or merge the two threads.

 

[canaryboy]

For my very short time on zoochat, I have found the moderators on this site extremely efficient and active. I believe zoochat is a very lively debating site which excepts all views, but stops it when it gets offensive, personal and 'too far'. All three of which has been displayed by some members. If we all thought about what we put on (including me) then there would be less need for the brilliant moderators.

 

[Shirokuma]

Not so sure every member would attempt to get access to offshow and/or private areas to photograph them in the first place though; this being my objection to the initial post as uploading images obtained illicitly onto Zoochat, however concerning they seemed, struck me as being on shaky legal ground to me.

It was hardly illicit. Whilst it's valid to have concerns about the way SMR's concerns were raised, SMR stated that:

'To cut a long story short, I found myself on the path that leads to the white-tailed sea eagles' aviary. At the end of it is an old cottage which has been run down for some time, but I was surprised to hear the sounds of birds coming from its open window.'

And goes on to say

'Like most zoo nerds, I went to look (there were no barriers to prevent me from doing so'

It's like the matter of posting 'confidential' information. If there are no keep out signs, no private property signs then it's fair enough to have a look.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

It's like the matter of posting 'confidential' information. If there are no keep out signs, no private property signs then it's fair enough to have a look.

Ah, but the thing is, SMR latter admitted that there was a keep out sign.

~Thlyo

 

[IanRRobinson]

It might be best to say that mistakes have been made by several parties. If they all realise that, admit errors were made, and where needed apologise we can all move on.

 

[Tunanta]

Thank you for your open communication Sparrow12, its great to have the breeding explanation confirmed.

Personally I would always report any serious welfare concerns I had over things I have seen-I feel everyone has a responsibility to push for decent animal welfare standards and I would much rather report concerns so they can be investigated than do nothing and possibly leave animals in poor conditions. Perhaps it's better to speak to the zoo first but we all make mistakes sometimes, learn and move on.

 

[Pertinax]

If we all thought about what we put on (including me) then there would be less need for the brilliant moderators.

A very thoughtful comment, Canaryboy.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

'Like most zoo nerds, I went to look (there were no barriers to prevent me from doing so'

It's like the matter of posting 'confidential' information. If there are no keep out signs, no private property signs then it's fair enough to have a look.

The photograph he posted of the cottage actually *shows* the signs!



There is a sign on the gate to the cottage, and as memory serves, another sign on the fence at the side of the cottage. To gain access to the cottage and the enclosures behind it, SMR would have needed to open the gate.

 

[LSouthern]

yes I've been there and it does have keep out signs, but its been sorted mistakes have been done and there has been explanation on why, birds are healthy all is good.