Are suliformes their own family?

[Sphenisciologist]

Hey guys, I’m having trouble figuring this out, so I decided to come on here. Are suliformes (gannets, boobies, cormorants and frigatebirds) their own family? Are they their own classification of water birds or are they a species of waterfowl or a species of pelecaniformes?

 

[Dassie rat]

According to Wikipedia (Suliformes - Wikipedia), the Suliformes contains the following families:
Gannets (Sulidae)
Frigate birds (Fregatidae)
Cormorants (Phalacrocoracidae)
Anhingas (Anhingidae)
The extinct penguin-like Plotopteridae

 

[Chlidonias]

First you need to understand the levels of taxonomy.

Species
Genus
Family
Order

The Order Suliformes contains separate families, for gannets/boobies, frigatebirds, cormorants, and anhingas.

Suliformes had formerly been lumped in with the Order Pelecaniformes, which turned out to be polyphyletic and so was split up (i.e. the different groups then in Pelecaniformes had been thought to be related due to outward physical similarities but the genetics show that have unrelated origins).

Waterfowl are swans, geese and ducks, and have nothing to do with Suliformes or Pelecaniformes.

 

[Sphenisciologist]

According to Wikipedia (Suliformes - Wikipedia), the Suliformes contains the following families:
Gannets (Sulidae)
Frigate birds (Fregatidae)
Cormorants (Phalacrocoracidae)
Anhingas (Anhingidae)
The extinct penguin-like Plotopteridae

well i understand that, however that was not really my question.

 

[Sphenisciologist]

First you need to understand the levels of taxonomy.

Species
Genus
Family
Order

The Order Suliformes contains separate families, for gannets/boobies, frigatebirds, cormorants, and anhingas.

Suliformes had formerly been lumped in with the Order Pelecaniformes, which turned out to be polyphyletic and so was split up (i.e. the different groups then in Pelecaniformes had been thought to be related due to outward physical similarities but the genetics show that have unrelated origins).

Waterfowl are swans, geese and ducks, and have nothing to do with Suliformes or Pelecaniformes.

Okay, so they are their own classification. Thanks, I’ve just been searching everywhere and I couldn’t find an answer.

 

[Tetzoo Quizzer]

Classification is how you put organisms into groups; the general term for such a group is a taxon. Thus Suliformes is a taxon which is now separate from Pelicaniformes, and which has always been separate from Anseriformes. What rank you give such taxa is essentially arbitrary, although there are suggestions to link Avian ranks with dates of divergence, see Bird Forum for details.

 

[Tetzoo Quizzer]

Species on the other hand are supposed to be non-arbitrary; essentially representing separate gene pools. However, real-life is messy, so some genes may cross “species” barriers thanks to hybridisation events without contradicting the basic idea. Thus, Galapagos Penguins have been genetically isolated for a significant period, so are universally accepted as a species, and there is no (known) evidence of genetic isolation of different sub populations, so they are not further subdivided.

 

[amur leopard]

Okay, so they are their own classification. Thanks, I’ve just been searching everywhere and I couldn’t find an answer.

I still don't think you understand.

Within the class Mammalia (mammals), you have lots of different orders (eg. Carnivorans, Primates, Rodents, Bats etc.). The general consensus is that there are 19 mammal orders. Every mammal is sorted into one of these orders. Taking the Carnivora order as an example, there are then smaller groups called families. Every carnivoran is sorted into one of the 16 carnivoran families. One of these families is the Felidae (cats).

Every cat species in the Felidae is sorted into a genus. The genus is the first word of the latin name (ie. Panthera for the leopard or Varanus for monitors). A genus contains a group of (most of the time) very closely related species. If you have two fertile animals, if they cannot breed to produce fertile offspring, they are different species (there are some exceptions, but that is the general 'rule').

All of the bolded words are forms of classification.

What you were talking about was the order Suliformes. Pelecaniformes are a different order. Waterfowl are a different order. If you want to find out more about bird orders, go here: Bird - Wikipedia.

 

[Tetzoo Quizzer]

The bolded terms are ranks, each example of a rank is a taxon.

 

[Sphenisciologist]

I still don't think you understand.

Within the class Mammalia (mammals), you have lots of different orders (eg. Carnivorans, Primates, Rodents, Bats etc.). The general consensus is that there are 19 mammal orders. Every mammal is sorted into one of these orders. Taking the Carnivora order as an example, there are then smaller groups called families. Every carnivoran is sorted into one of the 16 carnivoran families. One of these families is the Felidae (cats).

Every cat species in the Felidae is sorted into a genus. The genus is the first word of the latin name (ie. Panthera for the leopard or Varanus for monitors). A genus contains a group of (most of the time) very closely related species. If you have two fertile animals, if they cannot breed to produce fertile offspring, they are different species (there are some exceptions, but that is the general 'rule').

All of the bolded words are forms of classification.

What you were talking about was the order Suliformes. Pelecaniformes are a different order. Waterfowl are a different order. If you want to find out more about bird orders, go here: Bird - Wikipedia.

I already understood, you basically just explained a longer paragraph of what I understood. Thanks though.

 

[Strix]

Another easy giveaway is that all families’ scientific names end with ‘-idae’ and all bird orders (though not other orders, not sure why?) end with
‘-formes’.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I already understood, you basically just explained a longer paragraph of what I understood. Thanks though.

I'm not sure you *do* understand what people were trying to explain - in your initial post you referred to Suliformes both as a single species and as a family:

are suliformes (gannets, boobies, cormorants and frigatebirds) their own family? Are they their own classification of water birds or are they a species of waterfowl or a species of pelecaniformes?

...as a result of which both @Chlidonias and @amur leopard pointed out the difference between these two classification levels and an order (which is what Suliformes is)

 

[Sphenisciologist]

I'm not sure you *do* understand what people were trying to explain - in your initial post you referred to Suliformes both as a single species and as a family:



...as a result of which both @Chlidonias and @amur leopard pointed out the difference between these two classification levels and an order (which is what Suliformes is)

I think I probably just misused the term. My apologies. Orders are birds with ‘-formes’ and families are birds with ‘-idae’, I just think I didn’t understand which word to use to describe it. Thanks for the help!