Belfast Zoo Are the elephants mad?

F

fraserbabbs

New Member
Hey I was at Belfast zoo a couple of weeks ago and on the day I went to of the elephants were displaying severe repetitive head bobbing while facing poles or walls. Anytime they would move they would reposition themselves facing somehthing and continue bobbing.
Firstly has anyone else observed this at Belfast zoo, and secondly any idea what enrichment they use there? Apart from a few discarded toys I didnt see them do much...
Cheers
 
Belfast is now a site for older, post-reproductive elephant cows. They will have been in captivity many years, the majority of those will not have been quite as enriched as their current living situation is. That said, I think elephants moving to better facilities have shown marked decreases in acquired stereotyped behaviours they'd previously developed. I would be interested to know if these behaviours have been studied in the current Belfast animals, and an assessment made of whether they have decreased since arriving at Belfast.
 
This is very similar to Blackpool's three elderly cows sterotyped behaviour accures when the animal has not been enriched in time or is 'bored' so to speak.
 
First of all I think you are a person who has the same feelings for elephants that the elephant team at belfast have. I will endever to answer your concerns as best I can.
Firstly you proberly saw only three of our four elephants head bobbing. These elephants Jenny Dhunja And Yhettoo all have come from a performing background. Jenny and Dhunja are both ex Circus elephants, Dhunja is in fact a rescued elephant that now is owned by the German goverment. She was conferscated from a circus and bears the scars from her former life both mental and physical. Jenny is 52 years old and was chained every night untill she came to us. Yhettoo was born in a logging camp and also was chained for long periods of time. All this information is on our notice boards that are around the enclosure, and any member of the elephant team will be happy to explain about our elephants.
As for enrichment our paddock is covered in a deep layer of sand which is piled up in to mounds for the girls to lay and sleep on there are large logs in the paddock these are piled up every month so that the elephants can move these around and make there own enviroment. We also place food in and around these logs. we have concrete pipes with holes drilled in them which we put food into. These things allow them to forage as they would in there natural state.
We do not chain our elephants at night or at any time. Our managment policy is to keep our elephants in a protected contact situation and we train them in the target methode. Our training is purely for vetenary and husbandry needs. I hope this has covered any of your concerns. We our also open to any other in put into enrichment or any other elephant related subject.
 
Thank you Tarkin for a very informative answer to what I feel was a somewhat leading question designed to stir up controversy.
 
Tarkin said:
First of all I think you are a person who has the same feelings for elephants that the elephant team at belfast have. I will endever to answer your concerns as best I can.
Firstly you proberly saw only three of our four elephants head bobbing. These elephants Jenny Dhunja And Yhettoo all have come from a performing background. Jenny and Dhunja are both ex Circus elephants, Dhunja is in fact a rescued elephant that now is owned by the German goverment. She was conferscated from a circus and bears the scars from her former life both mental and physical. Jenny is 52 years old and was chained every night untill she came to us. Yhettoo was born in a logging camp and also was chained for long periods of time. All this information is on our notice boards that are around the enclosure, and any member of the elephant team will be happy to explain about our elephants.
As for enrichment our paddock is covered in a deep layer of sand which is piled up in to mounds for the girls to lay and sleep on there are large logs in the paddock these are piled up every month so that the elephants can move these around and make there own enviroment. We also place food in and around these logs. we have concrete pipes with holes drilled in them which we put food into. These things allow them to forage as they would in there natural state.
We do not chain our elephants at night or at any time. Our managment policy is to keep our elephants in a protected contact situation and we train them in the target methode. Our training is purely for vetenary and husbandry needs. I hope this has covered any of your concerns. We our also open to any other in put into enrichment or any other elephant related subject.
Click to expand...

Very well answered, perhaps if this person had took the trouble to read the information displayed they might not have needed to ask this"question" , keep up the good work Belfast Zoo by looking after the old girls in good conditions, they certainly deserve a good quality of life after what has happened to them previously at their former homes.
 
@ Tarkin as somebody that has had the pleasure of speaking to the some of the Elephant team at Belfast this year,and having the chance to see the Elephants reasonably close,and seeing the scars on Dhunja clearily all I can say is I'm glad she and the others are with a group of staff care deepily for these Elephants!!
As for the poster that started this post I personnaly think its them thats mad and not the Elephants in you care!!
 
fraserbabbs said:
Hey I was at Belfast zoo a couple of weeks ago and on the day I went to of the elephants were displaying severe repetitive head bobbing while facing poles or walls. Anytime they would move they would reposition themselves facing somehthing and continue bobbing.
Firstly has anyone else observed this at Belfast zoo, and secondly any idea what enrichment they use there? Apart from a few discarded toys I didnt see them do much...
Cheers
Click to expand...

So rather than ask about Belfast Zoo's husbandry of the elephants, why not direct your questions to their former owners? i.e. why were they chained up for most of the day? why has Dhunja got scars on her body?, why was Dhunja confiscated from her previous owners?. When you have contacted them and have the answers to the above questions then come back on here an tell us their answers, I await your reply with great interest.
 
Belfast has to be commended for taking up older elephants with some behavioral problems and for trying so hard to improve their lives !
While it is true that Jenny and Dunja have a circus background, it should be pointed out that Jenny lived at Hannover from 1983 to 2009 and Dunja from 1998 to 2009. While I don't know Yethoo and Dunja personally, at least some of Jennys problems just might also be related to the 26 years she spent at Hannover and their very rigid and harsh way of elephant training ...
 
Last edited:
An interesting thread and I am so appreciative that zoo staff like tarkin are here and able to join in.

But the Thread Subject was an..odd...choice, especially from someone who apparently is off to intern or work at a zoo
http://www.zoochat.com/22/moving-work-st-louis-zoo-219354/

Sloppy use of language or foolish or provocative? This sort of language will not be welcomed I'm sure by your new soon-to-be colleagues
 
I am afraid the poster that started this had no intention whatsoever to be interested in anything positive on the elephants at Belfast. Perhaps part of that infamous bunch of *** :D

For the record: I very much appreciate the foresight of the Belfast elephant team and their care record with their elephants. Full stop.
I am equally glad they took on elderly Asiatic elephants as part of the animal welfare programme within the EEP conservation breeding programme. :cool:
 
Tarkin said:
First of all I think you are a person who has the same feelings for elephants that the elephant team at belfast have. I will endever to answer your concerns as best I can.....
Click to expand...

A very good response from Tarkin.

It is worth repeating that long-term stereotypical behaviour in older animals is sometimes very difficult to completely remove even when the original reasons for the behaviour (relocation to a better environment, etc) has been undertaken. This has been well documented in various species particularly bears (Ames, 1994).

Belfast is quite right to point out the history of these animals and explain that the animals behaviour is not necessarily the result of their current situation.

Moreover, one has to look at the context of some 'stereotypical' behaviours. The pacing of carnivores is sometime cited as a stereotypy and video of such behaviour used by members of the anti-zoo lobby. However, such behaviour is often observed in these animals prior to them being fed particularly when the feeding time is at set time in the day and is more to do with expectation of food than a true stereotypical response.

Finally I think the title of the thread is at best unhelpful. I doubt if the elephants at Belfast are mad in any true sense.
 
Wow so I seem to have caused some offence by posting this question. In no way did I mean to insult/stur up any argument. I merely wondered if I was correct in labelling the behaviours as I had. I was not aware about the history of the animals and thank Tarkin for their input.
As for my case as someone interested in working within zoos that is precisely why I wondered if I was correct in observing these behaviours and why i was curious as to what may have been done.
 
fraserbabbs said:
Wow so I seem to have caused some offence by posting this question. In no way did I mean to insult/stur up any argument. I merely wondered if I was correct in labelling the behaviours as I had. I was not aware about the history of the animals and thank Tarkin for their input.
As for my case as someone interested in working within zoos that is precisely why I wondered if I was correct in observing these behaviours and why i was curious as to what may have been done.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have caused any offence, you asked a question and it has been answered, it is sad that the elephants at Belfast may not have been well looked after in their previous homes, however it is good that they are now homed at a place where they are well looked after and free of physical abuse, best of luck with your intentional future plans with working in a zoo,
 
I would like to say that we our so gratefull for the coments that came in after fraserbapps started this thread. We our a small zoo that strives to do our best for all the animals that we look after. And We thank you all for your surport. And hope that if any member of the zoo chat family come to our zoo please make your selves known to the elephant team.
Fraserbapps if you return to belfast zoo please ask questions of any keeper about our animals. And I do wish you well as you. But Please remember if in dought ask. Never take things at face value. There is always something to learn.
 
Tarkin said:
We our a small zoo
Click to expand...

I'd say medium, personally, though you might be talking staff and funding:). To my mind you're arguably the best zoo of your size in the UK and one of the best (of any size) in the UK.

Tarkin said:
And hope that if any member of the zoo chat family come to our zoo please make your selves known to the elephant team.
Click to expand...

We did when we visited in the Spring, you were great, many thanks.
 
fraserbabbs said:
Hey I was at Belfast zoo a couple of weeks ago and on the day I went to of the elephants were displaying severe repetitive head bobbing while facing poles or walls. Anytime they would move they would reposition themselves facing somehthing and continue bobbing.
Firstly has anyone else observed this at Belfast zoo, and secondly any idea what enrichment they use there? Apart from a few discarded toys I didnt see them do much...
Cheers
Click to expand...

I have read through the different answers to your question, and its sad to see how political management of elephants has become.

I have personally worked several elephants that never saw a circus, exhibiting this behaviour, so forget political comments like "everyone know how bad elephants spend their life on a circus" so thats the reason the elephants are bored now.

Furthermore, elephants that has been chained does not alaways perform this behaviour, I agree that many elephants that has been chained does, but theres a statistical problem to that explanation.

Something which is very unpopulair to disciss today, is how elephants become victims of management politics. And personally, I see many, well behaved, non agressive elephants transfered from free contact, to protected contact, as tragical victims, since its questionable if they actually benefit from the change of method. What many people doesnt relize is that elephants may be pretty aggressive within the artificial "groups" they "belong" to in zoos. With the free contact, you can control this upto a certain limit, and in PC you can not.

So, theres a lot of pseudo-scientific conclusion drawn today, based upon political views that the elephants "should" benefit from PC, they "must" be happier and blah nonsens, based upon peoples feelings.

I personally transfered one suffering PC elephant from France into FC condition, and anyone who saw her before PC in France, during PC in France, and after becomning FC again, has confirmed that she acutally benefit from the FC a lot.

In the case of Yeto, yes she was chained night time in Krefeld. She also was worked, and during the saturdays even giving rides. She was an excellent working elephant, as ecellent as any german shepherd with good training, and my opinion is she suffered as much as a german shepherd by the FC management.

Imagine an elephant, throughout her life, being trained and cared for in FC, and suddenly being left to PC, how can you be sure, shes a dancing around in happiness every day, becuse shes now "free", "rescued", and through the bars at maximum 1 hr /day "trained" by a keeper?

I was very sad when I heard she was transfered to FC, and there were several FC locations who could have taken her, but its presently important for EEP to bring as many FC elephants into PC situations, because of a politilcal policy decision taken in 2004.

By those messaures, EEP will remove elephants from FC environments, and reduce the possibilty for FC zoos to aquire more elephants.

At the same time, the FC management methos, will not die out, it will be effectively killed.

Enough with politics.

I have also to decale, that in spite of my critic of PC, Im notsoever critisizing Belfast Zoo, or the reasosn why they have chosen this methos of elephant management. The days are over when a zoo could take decision on that. Today, they dont get any elephants if they dont follow EEP decisions. And they can not buy an elephants from India, or Thailand, without risking their EEP membership. So zoos like Belfast have no choice. And of course they are incouraged to state the reasons for PC as "modern" benefitting the health" etc, becasue politics in zoos have during the last years being more important than ever before.

But, In order to expain the present rocking behaviour, one has to measure it, and compare it with the rocking before, like Yeto in Krefeld. How often did people see her rock there? And in her case, you even have to compare her rocking before and after she started to become mobbed by the other 2 Krefeld elephant.

It would then be an interesting scientific experiment, to let me come down, transfer her to FC again, let me work her like before, take her for walks in the zoo, etc, and then mesure how much she would rock after those changes.

But this will never happen. In order for politics to win, there may be a few victims. Very very seldom, people admit this, and change the situation like Zoo Le Pal did with the elephant I retrained, Saba.
 
I am so tired of the " just let ME deal with the elephant and all will be fine" attitude. It's all politics - on both sides, but at least on the PC side, nobody dies ! Have you learned nothing from all the dead and injured keepers with just the same approach ? They all thought they knew better. Where are the now ? I knew some of them quite well and so did you. Haven't you worked at Hannover and Vienna ? The future of elephants in zoos is on the PC side, if you like it or not, and it is better that way !
 
DanKoehl, you are missing the point. Yethoo`s situation in Krefeld was AWFUL. You could also say disgusting or a shame for the zoo world. She was chained very night (which was even in summer more then 14 hours every day). The outdoor enclosure was less then 1000 m² of barren and boring with no enrichment and few loose sand (at that time, the situation has improved since she left). She was in an awful social situation, being bullied by the 2 other females and having no social partners. So wow, she was taken on walks and got attention from her keepers?! Big deal!!!

She is about 100 times better off in Belfast, and the pc-fc discussion plays only a little role in this. I doubt very much that there are any other zoos with facilities as good as Belfast and a suitable social group where she could have gone. You conveniently forget to mention that far most zoos that take older, non-breeding females have enclosures that are much smaller then Belfasts (exept Givskud, but that`s also a pc zoo...). Yethoo is indeed a victim of politics, but not because she was sent to Belfast in a pc situation, but because Krefeld didn`t sent her to a better place many years earlier.
I could also say a lot about the "great" free contact training that the elephants in Krefeld had to endure, but given how awful Yethoo`s situation was, this does not add that much to the picture.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top