Are These in Captivity?

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I think the existence of the many monkey, ungulate, rodent, bird, and herp species alone that definitely can be kept successfully
You assume that they can be kept. But if they have never been kept, then this is merely an individual assumption. I'm just employing basic logic: if there is no husbandry of species X, then there must be reasons why this is the case. If you can outrule common, apparent factors like bureaucracy, population size, availability, the lack of public interest that you've mentioned, nutritional / behavioral specialists, (...) etc., then it is safe to conclude that there are inherent limiting factors, like the lifestyle of the species not agreeing with the conditions in captivity. And I think that this is the case here. So the general absence of PMOWs in captivity is in my books an indicator that their husbandry demands have not been completely met - which is supported by the aforementioned ZSL publication.
 
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You assume that they can be kept. But if they have never been kept, then this is merely an individual assumption. I'm just employing basic logic: if there is no husbandry of species X, then there must be reasons why this is the case. If you can outrule common, apparent factors like bureaucracy, population size, availability, the lack of public interest that you've mentioned, nutritional / behavioral specialists, (...) etc., then it is safe to conclude that there are inherent limiting factors, like the lifestyle of the species not agreeing with the conditions in captivity. And I think that this is the case here. So the general absence of PMOWs in captivity is in my books an indicator that their husbandry demands have not been completely met - which is supported by the aforementioned ZSL publication.

Again, I agree that the PMOW is likely not viable in captivity, especially do to the relatively recent ZSL report.

Of course factors such as legal complications, conservation status, public/institutional interest, etc. are all valid, but none of those inherently imply it cannot be done. Nutritional and behavioral specialties can imply it cannot be done, however, as is the case with many an animal. Yet we have specialty species such as pangolin which historically could not be kept but have been significantly more successful in recent years, though there is still much room for improvement. Failure in the past cannot be equated to failure in the present, though fear of which will be another potential factor. Of course, there is also the one factor being ignored here which is the most common of all: it has not been done, simply because no one has tried. Most animals fall under this category, and for no other reason other than simply no one's kept them (yet). Yes I do assume that animals whose close relatives, and I do mean within the same genus, have been kept very successfully can probably also be kept successfully. This is, of course, not always the case, but more often than not it will be. Three out of the four Leontopithecus have successful captive breeding programs, so why hasn't ever caissara been kept? The simple answer is it probably could be, but no one's ever tried it. Same goes for the Tapanuli Orangutan, as well as the various endangered kangaroo-rat species, Eleutherodactylus species, etc. Sometimes, the limiting factor is only as simple as "no one's done it" and that's the only reason. Something never being attempted ≠ not capable of being kept.

You're right, though, it is an assumption (however well informed) that it can be done, but if I can't assume it can be done when there's never been a modern attempt then you cannot assume it can't be done when there's never been a modern attempt ;) Schrödinger's husbandry, if you will :p

~Thylo
 
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@ThylacineAlive: you're just preaching to the choir...and yet you're telling me nothing new nor have you changed my pov.

@aardvark250 ahh, now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for adding these interesting links. Now I do wonder whether Enoshima really keeps them (alive) or just replaces one specimen after another (which, in my books, isn't really keeping, but a shameful waste of animals).
 
@ThylacineAlive: you're just preaching to the choir...and yet you're telling me nothing new nor will you change my pov.

@aardvark250 ahh, now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for adding these interesting links. Now I do wonder whether Enoshima really keeps them (alive) or just replaces one specimen after another (which, in my books, isn't really keeping, but a shameful waste of animals).
I highly doubt they keep the species for a long period of time, but it shows that someone is trying to keep PMOW, not as you stated that "none of the Japanese aquaria have displayed them".
 
Of all the banded penguins, the only ones I have not heard about being in captivity are the Galapagos species. I heard the last time they were ever in a zoo/aquarium was almost 100 years ago.
 
@ThylacineAlive: you're just preaching to the choir...and yet you're telling me nothing new nor have you changed my pov.

@aardvark250 ahh, now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for adding these interesting links. Now I do wonder whether Enoshima really keeps them (alive) or just replaces one specimen after another (which, in my books, isn't really keeping, but a shameful waste of animals).

"So the non-existence of a husbandry indicates that it might not be as easy as you propose."
"Yet the reality of non-existing husbandries indicates that it is apparently not possible."
"the fact that certain species are not kept there is a good indicator that there are certain factors at play that negatively impact their ex situ husbandry"
These were your initial statements.... :p

I do agree that simply replacing one specimen after another is just a waste. It seems Enoshima is just keeping them in regular tanks as well, and not sideways kreisel tanks or any other kind of specialized tank, which is unlikely to promote longevity in these animals sadly.

~Thylo
 
Of all the banded penguins, the only ones I have not heard about being in captivity are the Galapagos species. I heard the last time they were ever in a zoo/aquarium was almost 100 years ago.

Ecuador currently has a strict ban of exporting Galapagos wildlife.

~Thylo
 
Of all the banded penguins, the only ones I have not heard about being in captivity are the Galapagos species. I heard the last time they were ever in a zoo/aquarium was almost 100 years ago.
I believe the Ecuador government ban any native species (except tortoise) to be export out of the islands
 
I believe the Ecuador government ban any native species (except tortoise) to be export out of the islands

Snap! :p

AFAIK the tortoises are included in the ban, it's just that they live so long that many animals exported over 100 years ago are still alive and capable to reproducing to establish an ex-situ population.

~Thylo
 
These were your initial statements.... :p
They are, and I still stick by them. Just letting a specimen more and less slowly die and immediately replacing it with another one is no successful husbandry. So much about having the last ":p". :p (I'm starting to get the odd feeling that we're mimicking a scene from "Dracula: Dead and loving it". If so: *Fushta!*)

Both Galapagos land and marine iguanas have been exported from the islands in recent years. One specimen went to Japan, the majority is kept in Uganda.
 
but it shows that someone is trying to keep PMOW, not as you stated that "none of the Japanese aquaria have displayed them".
Oh my, you got me there. Had to happen after all these years. Well, do enjoy your celebration cigars...;) "display" is actually the best description if they just replace the specimens.
 
They are, and I still stick by them. Just letting a specimen more and less slowly die and immediately replacing it with another one is no successful husbandry. So much about having the last ":p". :p (I'm starting to get the odd feeling that we're mimicking a scene from "Dracula: Dead and loving it". If so: *Fushta!*)

That was never been the point I was responding to and you know that :rolleyes: But have your last word, I'm not going to keep going in circles over this.

Both Galapagos land and marine iguanas have been exported from the islands in recent years. One specimen went to Japan, the majority is kept in Uganda.
@aardvark250 Apparently, they have valid Cites documents. Plenty of Vitamin C and money can get you far in this world.

They're illegal. The reason they're mostly in Uganda is because Ecuador can't get them back from there. "Valid" CITES documents are a huge problem in the illegal wildlife trade. Many poached chimpanzees get exported using "valid" CITES documents.

~Thylo
 
That's interesting, how so?

I assume it's the same general reasons for why some countries can't expedite criminals from certain other countries. Probably just not a good working relationship between Uganda and Ecuador, and Uganda will tolerate known smuggled iguanas to be kept within their borders apparently. That's my assumption, though, not fact.

~Thylo
 
@ThylacineAlive If you want to break that circle, stop trying to return to it. *Gerenia!*:rolleyes::p

They're illegal. The reason they're mostly in Uganda is because Ecuador can't get them back from there.
Oh, so you have been to the CTC in person? How was it?:) Or was that just another *dramatic music" assumption? :D:D
 
Oh, so you have been to the CTC in person? How was it?:) Or was that just a *dramatic music" assumption? :D:D

Have you? It's not solely an assumption actually, faked/bribed CITES documents are known to be a huge problem in animal trafficking. But you know that, that's why you alluded to it earlier ;) The fact that the Ecuadorian government's stance is no Galapagos wildlife can be legally exported from the country is pretty damning evidence that they are illegal, too. Also the fact that the Ugandan animals are all hidden at private facilities, in Uganda :p But yes, it's also partly an assumption, which is why I clearly stated that it was an assumption--which you already read before posting this...

~Thylo
 
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