Are These in Captivity?

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Have you?
Not yet. The owner has invited me, though, but that was before COVID-19... Maybe I'll ask him in person, in my best David Frost impersonation, just to make sure whether your assumption is a fact or just an assumption. Now back to you; you haven't been to CTC in person, have you?
I'm so surprised how much you think I already know, and yet you still feel the need to lecture and correct me. ;)

Somehow, I'm getting the vibe that you're a bit ornery today. Hug? Otherwise, let's call it a day before everything gets deleted.
 
I've been in contact with the IUCN Iguana Specialist Group before about the Galapagos igaunas kept in facilities in Japan and Uganda. They are aware of them (track is kept of where smuggled iguana species turn up in public places), the animals are illegally held in all cases, but they can't actually do anything about them without the cooperation of the governments of those countries. Once they are in the country, they become "legal" even though they were either smuggled out or had fake documentation. Apparently there are quite a number of Marine and Land Iguanas in Japan.
 
@aardvark250 Apparently, they have valid Cites documents. Plenty of Vitamin C and money can get you far in this world.

Don't get me started on the topic of dodgy CITES documents :p put it this way - if one knows where to look, there are import/export permits for a lot of species which have been granted on the theoretical basis they are intended breeding in a zoo, but which most certainly never ended up in one.

But that's a digression for another day....
 

I really do hope that this might change in the future.

Actually I still can't work out (though I strongly suspect it may have something to do with bureaucratic intransigence and general inaction in the DR) why it hasn't already been done.

It is especially puzzling considering that establishing ex-situ captive assurance populations outside of the range country was one of the priorities of the species action plan.
 
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Both Galapagos land and marine iguanas have been exported from the islands in recent years. One specimen went to Japan, the majority is kept in Uganda.
@aardvark250 Apparently, they have valid Cites documents. Plenty of Vitamin C and money can get you far in this world.
I've been in contact with the IUCN Iguana Specialist Group before about the Galapagos igaunas kept in facilities in Japan and Uganda. They are aware of them (track is kept of where smuggled iguana species turn up in public places), the animals are illegally held in all cases, but they can't actually do anything about them without the cooperation of the governments of those countries. Once they are in the country, they become "legal" even though they were either smuggled out or had fake documentation. Apparently there are quite a number of Marine and Land Iguanas in Japan.
I was just looking at the CITES database. The Marine Iguanas in Uganda are recorded as being exported from Switzerland (and were presumably the ones imported to Switzerland the year before from Mali), and the Japanese ones listed have origins in Mali, Spain, and Austria. So clearly nothing dodgy going on with those CITES records!

The Land Iguanas are similarly suspect. There are Ugandan imports from Switzerland which were in turn imported from Mali. The Japanese ones (and also a Thai listing) were imported in turn from Uganda.

So basically they are being smuggled to Mali and then laundered through European countries - mainly Switzerland - as "captive bred".
 
Is the offspring of a smuggled animal considered smuggled or captive bred? Theoretically if the smuggled founder population dies of old age, leaving F1, F2, etc., would they still be illegal?
 
@Chlidonias given the (Swiss) background of the CTC owner, I'm not surprised...
@RatioTile you could ask that all the zoos displaying Brachylophus fasciatus or Bitis parviocula...;)
 
It's legal for a zoo to keep confiscated smuggled species, no? That's how reptile houses get turtles and snakes?
 
That's how reptile houses get turtles and snakes?
It's one of various ways to obtain specimens. However, most zoos do not jump at the chance to obtain confiscated reptiles unless it's something rare and prestigious. More often, they are forced upon them by local authorities...
 
Is the offspring of a smuggled animal considered smuggled or captive bred? Theoretically if the smuggled founder population dies of old age, leaving F1, F2, etc., would they still be illegal?
It's legal for a zoo to keep confiscated smuggled species, no? That's how reptile houses get turtles and snakes?
Laws, and how they are acted upon, depend on the country in which the zoo is situated. In regards to your second question, confiscated smuggled animals have been confiscated under the laws of that country's government - so if they are placed in a zoo by that government to be kept then that zoo is by definition keeping them legally. In the cases of extremely endangered species then the government of either country may try to repatriate them (an example, using a random species and country, might be Ploughshare Tortoises confiscated in the UK being returned to Madagascar rather than simply placed in a zoo within the UK), but usually the only options are placing the animal in a zoo or destroying it.

However that is a different situation to smuggled animal being kept illegally. In somewhere like Australia it is easy to know if reptiles (in this case) are being held illegally because no exotic reptiles are allowed to be kept by private individuals and permits for native species are easy to obtain. In other countries it is much more difficult to prove where an animal has come from or how legitimately, and that is often where dodgy CITES documents come into play. Some countries will pursue obviously-smuggled animals despite them having been laundered in some way, while other countries (e.g. Japan in the current situation with Galapagos iguanas) will not. In terms of the law in Japan the animals will be "legal" because they have been imported with CITES documents showing they were "captive-bred" - but in terms of the law in Ecuador they clearly are not legal because they have smuggled out of Ecuador. However, Ecuador (or conservation bodies) cannot do anything about those animals if the government (of, in this case, Japan) won't act upon it.

As mentioned by Batto above, all the Ethiopian Mountain Vipers (Bitis parviocula) in captivity are "illegal" as that species has never been exported legally and the ones which came into the USA did so on the same sort of dodgy CITES documents as the Galapagos iguanas have done elsewhere.
 
Laws, and how they are acted upon, depend on the country in which the zoo is situated. In regards to your second question, confiscated smuggled animals have been confiscated under the laws of that country's government - so if they are placed in a zoo by that government to be kept then that zoo is by definition keeping them legally. In the cases of extremely endangered species then the government of either country may try to repatriate them (an example, using a random species and country, might be Ploughshare Tortoises confiscated in the UK being returned to Madagascar rather than simply placed in a zoo within the UK), but usually the only options are placing the animal in a zoo or destroying it.

However that is a different situation to smuggled animal being kept illegally. In somewhere like Australia it is easy to know if reptiles (in this case) are being held illegally because no exotic reptiles are allowed to be kept by private individuals and permits for native species are easy to obtain. In other countries it is much more difficult to prove where an animal has come from or how legitimately, and that is often where dodgy CITES documents come into play. Some countries will pursue obviously-smuggled animals despite them having been laundered in some way, while other countries (e.g. Japan in the current situation with Galapagos iguanas) will not. In terms of the law in Japan the animals will be "legal" because they have been imported with CITES documents showing they were "captive-bred" - but in terms of the law in Ecuador they clearly are not legal because they have smuggled out of Ecuador. However, Ecuador (or conservation bodies) cannot do anything about those animals if the government (of, in this case, Japan) won't act upon it.

As mentioned by Batto above, all the Ethiopian Mountain Vipers (Bitis parviocula) in captivity are "illegal" as that species has never been exported legally and the ones which came into the USA did so on the same sort of dodgy CITES documents as the Galapagos iguanas have done elsewhere.

Another ( famous ) example is the Spix macaw. Not a single Spix macaw has ever been exported legaly from Brazil but evenso the illegal birds have bred quite succesfull in the Philippines, Switzerland, Qatar, Spain and Germany and saved the species in this way !
If I've understand everything right all (?*) birds are now officialy owned by the Brazilian gouverment and the places were they are kept ( ACTP, Pairi Daiza and ( still ? ) Jurong ) keep and breed their animals with permission of the Brazilian gouverment and are now thus legal.
* there are still rumors that there are still some illegal Spix macaws in Switzerland
 
Fiji Banded Iguanas have also never legally been exported.
Yes, they have.

Both Banded and Crested are bred in captivity in Fiji and have been legally exported to specific zoos (e.g. all the ones which have or had been kept in Australia and New Zealand were completely legal). The bulk of animals outside Fiji are the result of non-legal movements, but it is not correct to say that "Fiji Banded Iguanas have also never legally been exported".
 
Yes, they have.

Both Banded and Crested are bred in captivity in Fiji and have been legally exported to specific zoos (e.g. all the ones which have or had been kept in Australia and New Zealand were completely legal). The bulk of animals outside Fiji are the result of non-legal movements, but it is not correct to say that "Fiji Banded Iguanas have also never legally been exported".

That's interesting, I, too, was under the impression all ex-situ Fiji iguana populations were the result of illegal exports. Good to hear otherwise.

~Thylo
 
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