I am just curious as to what the Bronx president is going to do. (If he will go with the decision of the last president to phase out the elephants, I mean) And if he does go with the previous decision, what will be placed there...
Article: Elephants Get Harder To Find
- Thread starter snowleopard
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Well, most sources like news articles say that the Bronx zoo will phase out their elephants.
I would suggest being cautiously optimistic about whether Bronx will keep the elephants or not.
If they did get rid of elephants, maybe they could move the GOH rhinos into that exhibit, and put something else in the current GOH rhino exhibit.
I think it would be great if the Bronx zoo made a huge improvement and added a whole section of their zoo just for elephants, like how at san diego zoo they have a whole section for their elephants, EO. But I don't mean that they should follow the same theme of education.
I don't like it when zoos hide away their elephants, or when they don't make a big deal about them. The bronx zoo is a good example of this.
So is Roger Williams Park Zoo in rhode island. RWPZ doesn't really ever talk about how lucky they are to be a small zoo and still have elephants there, and they are lucky to have them. They do however sometimes talk about how they will soon be the only zoo in new england to have them, or in the general vicinity of new england since buttonwood park zoo (bad elephant program) and bronx zoo's program are supposed to close. RWPZ only has one yard, but it's pretty enriching. The elephants never sway when they are outside, only when they are in the barn.
I would suggest being cautiously optimistic about whether Bronx will keep the elephants or not.
If they did get rid of elephants, maybe they could move the GOH rhinos into that exhibit, and put something else in the current GOH rhino exhibit.
I think it would be great if the Bronx zoo made a huge improvement and added a whole section of their zoo just for elephants, like how at san diego zoo they have a whole section for their elephants, EO. But I don't mean that they should follow the same theme of education.
I don't like it when zoos hide away their elephants, or when they don't make a big deal about them. The bronx zoo is a good example of this.
So is Roger Williams Park Zoo in rhode island. RWPZ doesn't really ever talk about how lucky they are to be a small zoo and still have elephants there, and they are lucky to have them. They do however sometimes talk about how they will soon be the only zoo in new england to have them, or in the general vicinity of new england since buttonwood park zoo (bad elephant program) and bronx zoo's program are supposed to close. RWPZ only has one yard, but it's pretty enriching. The elephants never sway when they are outside, only when they are in the barn.
wensleydale
Well-Known Member
The fact that the Bronx is getting rid of its Elephants makes me sad. I wish they would find a way to keep them.
I wish AI had worked out at RWPZ. I know that they tried to AI Alice at least twice. I wish they had tried the other two as well, from what I understand they picked Alice because she was the most adaptable of the three. Maybe there were financial constraints? How much does it cost to preform an AI? I can't help but notice that they stopped right around the time that the recession hit.
I am also very disappointed, especially because they are untapped genes. It would also have been fantastic for Alice, since she doesn't really get along too well with the other elephants and is always on the other side of the yard (they aren't as bad relationships as happy is at the bronx zoo, so they can be at the same yard at the same time, but she is just always by herself at a different area of it)
wensleydale
Well-Known Member
I always thought that a calf might have brought them closer together. I never knew she was the odd one out. I always thought that they got along. Is it just that Ginny and Kate a closer to each other?
Yes Ginny follows Kate everywhere. Kate is the matriarch, and has the hole in her ear from a alergie to a binomine shot she got when she was younger. They get along pretty well, but Alice always stays away for some reason. If one of them got a calf, it might also cause jealousy which would be really really bad. They can't have calves anymore since they are all 30, so its very dangerous.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I visited the Buffalo Zoo for the first time this summer and found it to be charming. Yes, the facilities are very small compared to the spacious ones I've also seen all over the country, but this community has a very, very close link with its zoo. Their million-dollar AZA-mandated modifications to its (incredible) 100-year-old elephant house were funded in large part by elementary and middle-school classes proudly listed outside the exhibit. The emotional ties between community and zoo is much different than at any zoo I've seen around the country, and I think Buffalo would be devastated if they were to lose Surapa and Jothi. I'm hoping that the fact that these ladies can't live together enables them to be granted an exception by AZA. Both will have to live alone wherever they go, so they might as well be in Buffalo. We talked with the keepers at length, and I feel both girls are getting extremely good care.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I think the Bronx Zoo has made a very poor decision. While we all know that zoos with elephants should have plenty of space for them, I just as strongly believe that zoos with space should have elephants.
The Bronx Zoo is perhaps the largest metropolitan zoo in the country with 260-odd acres, almost double what the incredible San Diego Zoo has, for example. That and the excellent science practiced by parent conservancy makes it an absolute crime that this facility isn't using its space to help conserve a species that many zoos simply can't house. While the Conservancy--parent to sister organizations Central Park Zoo, NY Aquarium, etc--does devote large sums of money to conservation in southeast Asia, I feel they have an obligation to use their land resource to help the effort here.
I know part of their issue is how to manage as their existing elephants gradually die. There is also a social issue here, as both Maxine and Patty have been violent with Happy. I once proposed to a former keeper that both Maxine and Patty individually would harm Happy as well, so swapping out herd-mates throughout the day wouldn't work either. The zoo's decision to phase elephants out was made in 2005, a time when I think zoos were truly startled by the intimidation of activists and even large zoos like the Bronx made decisions simple to get out of the spotlight and its pressure. But the fact that the exhibit can only be seen on the tram and that Happy can't be seen at all seems to suggest that there may be no going back on this decision. Unfortuately..
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I lost a whole in the post above somehow. I meant to say that, when I proposed to a former Bronx zookeeper the idea of splitting the three girls up into different duos throughout the day--with the assumption that perhaps Patty and Maxine alone wouldn't harm Happy--he assured me that either Patty or Maxine individually would do so as well. Sorry.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I also wanted to add that conservation centers have been in the works in both Portland and in FL. Both are essentially AZA-approved sanctuaries, and the one in Florida has already passed phase one of its construction and has a few Africans on site.
https://www.nationalelephantcenter.org/
The Portland Zoo was reported to be searching for a site for a "Remote Elephant Center," essentially a huge, off-campus breeding center for elephants. The National Zoo had an on-campus conservation site in Front Royal VA called the Smithsonian Conservation and Biology Institute since 1975, and I wish they would consider using some of their 3000 acres for breeding Asian elephants.
https://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/
Centers like these are clearly a way to breed this rapidly-disappearing species on the larger scale needed, while silencing activists by removing the issue of sufficient habitat.
https://www.nationalelephantcenter.org/
The Portland Zoo was reported to be searching for a site for a "Remote Elephant Center," essentially a huge, off-campus breeding center for elephants. The National Zoo had an on-campus conservation site in Front Royal VA called the Smithsonian Conservation and Biology Institute since 1975, and I wish they would consider using some of their 3000 acres for breeding Asian elephants.
https://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/
Centers like these are clearly a way to breed this rapidly-disappearing species on the larger scale needed, while silencing activists by removing the issue of sufficient habitat.
Portland's off-site elephant center is a work in progress. Smithsonian has been considering the presence of elephants at Front Royal for at least 15 years. But it doesn't make sense to build either of them at the moment until elephants become available.
Elephants are not conserved in zoos, the only place that can successfully be done is in the wild, so they make a very sensible decision in not spending millions of dollars on a proper elephant facility, they can use that money much better in investing it in in situ elephant conservation, if they really want to make a change.
American zoos could follow example of European ones. A number of mid-sized city zoos, especially Cologne, revitalized by replacing large part of the zoo (2ha in Cologne) with the new spacious exhibit designed for breeding herd. Old elephant houses with historic architecture can be converted for smaller animals or into non-animal uses.
Off-zoo breeding centers are bad solution, because elephants are needed on show to bring visitors and help education and conservation. If a center actually breeds their elephants, than a social group would need to be broken to bring them back on exhibit. May be logical for a circus company, where the aim is to separate young elephants once they can be performing.
For the same reason I don't like so-called 'sanctuaries' or animal shelters under cryptic name. Elephants there don't fill their most important reason why they are in captivity - don't spread the conservation message and help others of their species.
For the old female elephants which didn't socialize with other elephants, I think little can be done. In so-called sanctuaries they also don't socialize. Maybe some behavioral profiling (eg mixing dominant and submissive females together) might help.
Off-zoo breeding centers are bad solution, because elephants are needed on show to bring visitors and help education and conservation. If a center actually breeds their elephants, than a social group would need to be broken to bring them back on exhibit. May be logical for a circus company, where the aim is to separate young elephants once they can be performing.
For the same reason I don't like so-called 'sanctuaries' or animal shelters under cryptic name. Elephants there don't fill their most important reason why they are in captivity - don't spread the conservation message and help others of their species.
For the old female elephants which didn't socialize with other elephants, I think little can be done. In so-called sanctuaries they also don't socialize. Maybe some behavioral profiling (eg mixing dominant and submissive females together) might help.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry--I should have mentioned that both of these proposed off-premises facilities would be in addition to the small herds that already exist in their respective zoos, not instead of the zoo exhibits.
I'm a college professor, and I couldn't agree with you more about the value of experiencing elephants live to instill in people the desire to save these majestic animals from extinction.
AmbikaFan
Well-Known Member
I never heard SCBI was considering elephants! How did you discover this? I have this simple little idea to get important elephants from Asia. Four of NZP's current herd started out in 1975 at Sri Lanka's Pennawala Elephant Orphanage, a situation I jokingly call "the alumni council." But it made me think. CITES bans importation of endangered animals from the wild, but perhaps getting a couple of the orphanage's 70 charges would be more possible. Getting animals from a not-for-profit organization instead of the wild should make some considerable difference in compliance with international trade regulations. And surely, there must be some in the orphanage that have leg injuries that would prevent their return to the wild. The only Asian elephant I know to have entered the country from the wild is Portland's Bornean elephant, Chendra; she was injured and in desperate need of medical help. You're so right in saying that we currently don't have the elephants to use large sanctuary facilities. We need the Asian equivalent of SDSP's Swaziland culling group.
To a certain point the activists are right, elephants need a lot of room. It is also a sad fact that sanctuaries are not at all what they are cracked up to be.
I think elephants need to be in big zoos. I think if there are elephants who are not able to get along with other elephants, the AZA could have an observation process to verify that a given elephant doesn't get along with other elehants and grant exemptions to the 3 elephant rule.
Moving elephants can end pretty badly. I really think if the surroundings aren't horrible, and they have good keepers moving mature elephants is not always necessary.
The activists got all over Greenville over Joy. Greenville actually selected a good place for Joy. Cheyenne Mountain Zoo has a great elephant facility. The trouble is that I think any road trip, even to the Tennessee sanctuary was probably too long for her. She do
Joy had very good keepers who she trusted. The activists got all over Greenville for moving her after many set up the situation which led to her move.
I totally favor more room for elephants, and them having other elephants around, but no situation is 'one size fits all'.
The age, physical and mental condition of given elephants should always be taken into account.
With smaller, less adequate zoos, maybe agreements not to acquire or breed new elephants
is a better solution.
I think elephants need to be in big zoos. I think if there are elephants who are not able to get along with other elephants, the AZA could have an observation process to verify that a given elephant doesn't get along with other elehants and grant exemptions to the 3 elephant rule.
Moving elephants can end pretty badly. I really think if the surroundings aren't horrible, and they have good keepers moving mature elephants is not always necessary.
The activists got all over Greenville over Joy. Greenville actually selected a good place for Joy. Cheyenne Mountain Zoo has a great elephant facility. The trouble is that I think any road trip, even to the Tennessee sanctuary was probably too long for her. She do
Joy had very good keepers who she trusted. The activists got all over Greenville for moving her after many set up the situation which led to her move.
I totally favor more room for elephants, and them having other elephants around, but no situation is 'one size fits all'.
The age, physical and mental condition of given elephants should always be taken into account.
With smaller, less adequate zoos, maybe agreements not to acquire or breed new elephants
is a better solution.
When you have followed zoo developments for a considerable time, you often remember things that many forget. A good internet search will provide some general information.
Animals with leg injuries wouldn't be ideal to ship overseas.
Yes, Chendra was the last wild-caught Asian elephant to be imported to the US. She was a gift to the Oregon Zoo by Enron when they purchased the local electric utility company.
A large import of Asian elephants isn't necessary unless a few more zoos build new/enlarge exhibits for Asian elephants in the next 10 years. A steady import every 5-10 years of a few new founders would serve the population well. There are plenty of bloodlines in international zoos that are not represented in N America. The African elephant population in N America is a lot worse off than our Asian population.
Eh, I can understand the appeal of off-site breeding centers. If you don't have to deal with guests, you can focus more on keeping the elephants comfortable and getting them to breed. A lot of sanctuaries operate under the same logic. I mean, if I ran a place like that I'd want to allow guests, but I can understand why some places don't really go for it. I don't see how it's much different from a research center not opened to the public.
I know that the Milwaukee County Zoo has FINALLY started planning for it's elephant exhibit renovation. (I first heard that they were going to expand it back in 2010. They are just now starting proposal designs.) According to an article I read, construction of the exhibit is to begin in March 2017, and be finished in April 2018. I assume that 2016 is going to be fundraising and demolition of exhibits that the elephant exhibit will replace, but I don't know if just having a plan for the elephants means that Milwaukee will be able to keeps it's elephants passed the September 2016 deadline. Does anyone know if the AZA is allowing zoos to keep elephants if the new exhibits are in progress? Or will the elephants have to leave no matter what in September 2016?