Asian Elephants in Europe 2020

Antoine said:
Confirmation that Nina in Le Pal is pregnant and the birth is due to arrive in march/april.

Animaux - Echange d'alligators, arrivée de rhinocéros et naissance attendue d'un éléphanteau au PAL (Allier)
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Very exciting news! :) Upali’s first calf at Le Pal.

This will also be Nina’s fifth pregnancy:

Jade (F) 04/05/2008-30/11/2015
Stillborn (unknown) 2010-2010
Stillborn (unknown) 2012-2012
Tom (M) Born 13/09/2014
Fetus (unknown) due March/April 2021


Article Translation:
While waiting for possible crocodile births in 2021, caregivers are closely monitoring the gestation of an elephant, Nina, well known to park visitors. Ultrasound is scheduled for January and birth is expected in March-April. Nina is already "little" Tom's mother.
 
Jambo said:
Do you have a list of how many elephants they currently have? The Elephant Database says they have twenty one, but the website is not always reliable and up to date. :cool:
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This website is usually up-to-date: Petra Prager - elefanten fotolexikon
According to that website they currently have 20 asian elephants. That is true because the zoo itself said the same on facebook a few weeks ago.
 
MennoPebesma said:
This website is usually up-to-date: Petra Prager - elefanten fotolexikon
According to that website they currently have 20 asian elephants. That is true because the zoo itself said the same on facebook a few weeks ago.
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Correct.

Here is a list of their current Asian Elephants. They have 5.15 in total:

Mala (F) Born 1964 wild
Jana (F) Born 1976 wild
Praya (F) Born 1976 wild
Khaing Hnin Hnin (F) Born 13/09/1982 Rangoon, Burma
Chamundi (M) Born 25/05/1992 Ganesha x Yashoda
Sayang (F) Born 1995 wild or possibly Rangoon Zoo
Aye Chan May (F) Born 13/08/1995 Rangoon Zoo
Po Chin (M) Born 18/07/2000 Chang x Jangoli
Farina (F) Born 20/03/2003 Calvin x Khaing Hnin Hnin
Saphira (F) Born 07/05/2010 Nikolai x Sayang
Soraya (F) Born 9/12/2010 Nikolai x Khaing Hnin Hnin
Amithi (F) Born 24/12/2012 Nikolai x Farina
Malay (F) Born 13/03/2013 Nikolai x Khaing Hnin Hnin
Sitara (F) Born 27/10/2013 Nikolai x Sayang
Nang Faa (F) Born 20/05/2015 Nikolai x Farina
Thambi (M) Born 22/12/2016 Nikolai x Saphira
Ravi (M) Born 05/05/2017 Nikolai x Sayang
Ta Wan (M) Born 19/09/2017 Po Chin x Khaing Hnin Hnin
Malee (F) Born 26/02/2019 Po Chin x Aye Chan May
Luna (F) Born 08/06/2019 Po Chin x Farina
 
Elephantelephant said:
Soraya is very likely to be pregnant. I also think that pregnant are Sayang, Saphira, Khaing Hnin Hnin and maybe also Farina, Aye Chan May, Amithi, Malay or Sitara. So the number of possible pregnant cows is really high.
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You were right. Soraya is pregnant and expected to give birth around the end of the year. I'm happy they waited at least a little because her half-sisters Farina and Saphira were way too young mothers I think in my opinion. Multiple studies have shown that it is harmful in the long-term for the elephant-mother to give birth before she is 10.
 
Nice to hear of another pregnancy! As much as I hate to say it though, I cannot get excited about a single pregnancy at Pairi Daiza until they get rid of Po Chin. He is their sole breeding male,and along with being not particularly genetically valuable, he is subjectively one of the ugliest bulls in Europe (probably only his uncle, Gandhi, is uglier), and moreover, his genetics seem to be very dominant, so all of his calves look like him as well. God I wish they would move him into a non breeding situation. At bare minimum he seems to produce more cow calves, so fingers crossed for a little cow calf for the pair!
 
Hyak_II said:
Nice to hear of another pregnancy! As much as I hate to say it though, I cannot get excited about a single pregnancy at Pairi Daiza until they get rid of Po Chin. He is their sole breeding male,and along with being not particularly genetically valuable, he is subjectively one of the ugliest bulls in Europe (probably only his uncle, Gandhi, is uglier), and moreover, his genetics seem to be very dominant, so all of his calves look like him as well. God I wish they would move him into a non breeding situation. At bare minimum he seems to produce more cow calves, so fingers crossed for a little cow calf for the pair!
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@Hyak_II any Asian Elephant born is a blessing they are highly endangered.
 
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Hyak_II said:
Nice to hear of another pregnancy! As much as I hate to say it though, I cannot get excited about a single pregnancy at Pairi Daiza until they get rid of Po Chin. He is their sole breeding male,and along with being not particularly genetically valuable, he is subjectively one of the ugliest bulls in Europe (probably only his uncle, Gandhi, is uglier), and moreover, his genetics seem to be very dominant, so all of his calves look like him as well. God I wish they would move him into a non breeding situation. At bare minimum he seems to produce more cow calves, so fingers crossed for a little cow calf for the pair!
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Po Chin (2000) does look a bit abnormal, but in the end, he looks alright to me.

Here is a photo of him:
images


He is rather short and stocky, and seems to have a large head, but all Elephants in different in some way. I think the looks descend from Chieng Mei, Po’s grandfather who was rather short and stocky himself (judging from photos).

Can’t Chamundi (1992) breed at Pairi Daiza? He produced an unsuccessful calf in 2016 with Aye Chan May, so he’s shown he is capable of breeding. He is also genetically valuable, with only three living relatives.

Also re. Po Chin being not particularly genetically valuable, I would 100% agree with you.

Chieng Mei + Ida’s living descendants:

First Generation:
0.1 Irma (1970) at Rotterdam Zoo
0.1 Schottzie (1975) at Cincinnati Zoo
1.0 Gandhi (2006) at La Palmyre Zoo
1.0 Plai Sak (2017) at Copenhagen Zoo

Second Generation:
0.1 Bernhardine (1984) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Yasmin (1990) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Tara (1998) at Blackpool Zoo
0.1 Karishma (1998) at Whipsnade Zoo
1.0 Po Chin (2000) at Pairi Daiza Zoo
1.0 Assam (2000) at Budapest Zoo
0.1 Bangka (2000) at Rotterdam Zoo
1.0 Sibu (2004) at Eindhoven Zoo
1.0 Tom (2014) at Le Pal Zoo
0.1 Suki (2017) at Planckendael Zoo
0.1 Tun Kai (2017) at Planckendael Zoo
0.1 Mun (2020) at Copenhagen Zoo

Third Generation:
0.1 Anak (2003) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Sundara (2004) at Chester Zoo
0.1 Asha (2007) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Billy (2008) at Denver Zoo
0.1 Faya (2010) at Rotterdam Zoo
1.0 George (Ned) (2010) at Katowice Zoo
0.1 Kalaya (2013) at Knies Kinderzoo
1.0 Kavi (2014) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Samiya (2014) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Sunay (2015) at La Tanière Zoo
0.1 Elizabeth (2016) at Whipsnade Zoo
1.0 Kabir (2017) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Avani (2017) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Ta Wan (2017) at Pairi Daiza
1.0 Arun (2017) at Budapest Zoo
0.1 Jing (2018) at Eindhoven Zoo
0.1 Malee (2019) at Pairi Daiza
0.1 Luna (2019) at Pairi Daiza

Fourth Generation:
1.0 Ashoka (2014) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Zinda (2016) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Indali (2016) at Chester Zoo
1.0 Sanjay (2018) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Riva (2020) at Chester Zoo


As you can see, there are a lot of females born in this line.
 
Jambo said:
Po Chin (2000) does look a bit abnormal, but in the end, he looks alright to me.

Here is a photo of him:
images


He is rather short and stocky, and seems to have a large head, but all Elephants in different in some way. I think the looks descend from Chieng Mei, Po’s grandfather who was rather short and stocky himself (judging from photos).

Can’t Chamundi (1992) breed at Pairi Daiza? He produced an unsuccessful calf in 2016 with Aye Chan May, so he’s shown he is capable of breeding. He is also genetically valuable, with only three living relatives.

Also re. Po Chin being not particularly genetically valuable, I would 100% agree with you.

Chieng Mei + Ida’s living descendants:

First Generation:
0.1 Irma (1970) at Rotterdam Zoo
0.1 Schottzie (1975) at Cincinnati Zoo
1.0 Gandhi (2006) at La Palmyre Zoo
1.0 Plai Sak (2017) at Copenhagen Zoo

Second Generation:
0.1 Bernhardine (1984) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Yasmin (1990) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Tara (1998) at Blackpool Zoo
0.1 Karishma (1998) at Whipsnade Zoo
1.0 Po Chin (2000) at Pairi Daiza Zoo
1.0 Assam (2000) at Budapest Zoo
0.1 Bangka (2000) at Rotterdam Zoo
1.0 Sibu (2004) at Eindhoven Zoo
1.0 Tom (2014) at Le Pal Zoo
0.1 Suki (2017) at Planckendael Zoo
0.1 Tun Kai (2017) at Planckendael Zoo
0.1 Mun (2020) at Copenhagen Zoo

Third Generation:
0.1 Anak (2003) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Sundara (2004) at Chester Zoo
0.1 Asha (2007) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Billy (2008) at Denver Zoo
0.1 Faya (2010) at Rotterdam Zoo
1.0 George (Ned) (2010) at Katowice Zoo
0.1 Kalaya (2013) at Knies Kinderzoo
1.0 Kavi (2014) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Samiya (2014) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Sunay (2015) at La Tanière Zoo
0.1 Elizabeth (2016) at Whipsnade Zoo
1.0 Kabir (2017) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Avani (2017) at Dublin Zoo
1.0 Ta Wan (2017) at Pairi Daiza
1.0 Arun (2017) at Budapest Zoo
0.1 Jing (2018) at Eindhoven Zoo
0.1 Malee (2019) at Pairi Daiza
0.1 Luna (2019) at Pairi Daiza

Fourth Generation:
1.0 Ashoka (2014) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Zinda (2016) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Indali (2016) at Chester Zoo
1.0 Sanjay (2018) at Dublin Zoo
0.1 Riva (2020) at Chester Zoo


As you can see, there are a lot of females born in this line.
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For anyone that can't be bothered counting; from the 39 living descendents of Chieng Mei and Ida, 23 are female.

I would actually prefer for more female calves to be born with Elephants. For zoo's to create a realistic breeding Asian Elephant herd, they would need a related group of females and an unrelated male. More females are required compared to a single bull. There are not a lot of zoo's that hold bachelor males around, so i'm suprised zoo's have managed to find homes for the surviving bulls born in captivity.
 
Jambo said:
There are not a lot of zoo's that hold bachelor males around, so i'm suprised zoo's have managed to find homes for the surviving bulls born in captivity.
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Not to put too fine a point on the matter, it's getting very close to the point where they cannot, and collections may have to start making tough decisions.
 
The Hedgehog said:
page 8 of the zoo's 2019 report:

Meanwhile significant work was undertaken to place Kavi and Ashoka, the five-year old 1500kg Asian elephant bulls,
in Sydney Zoo, a new zoo in Australia where the animals will be kept in protected contact.
Due to strict quarantine arrangements, Knowsley Safari Park in Britain agreed to keep the bulls
in the three-month quarantine required by the Australian authorities before shipment to Australia;
quarantine at Dublin Zoo was not an option.
Elephant expert, Alan Roocroft, assisted with the transport plan.
The move to Britain took place on schedule in January 2020 ...

https://www.dublinzoo.ie/wp-content/upl ... 19_sml.pdf

Apparently in the future Dublin Zoo are looking to split thier Asian Elephant herd into 2. One half will move on too new pastures. I have a feeling that half of the herd may be sent to Chester Zoo to join the Hi-Way herd of Asian elephants. I have no evidence to support the Elephants moving to Chester but it does seem to be a sensible and likely option.
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As mentioned by @The Hedgehog in the Dublin news thread, males Kavi (2014) and Ashoka (2014) are currently in quarantine at the Knowsley Safari Park ahead of their move to Australia. They arrived back in January from Dublin.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Not to put too fine a point on the matter, it's getting very close to the point where they cannot, and collections may have to start making tough decisions.
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I think it's a shame (a small shame) that Noahs Ark never went on to receive any Asian elephants. I know that they planned to have a breeding group, but they could have easily held a bachelor group, like they do with the Africans. They'd likely have a much larger group, and this fantastic facility would be much better utilised (Especially when you consider that Asians generally do "better" in captivity).
 
39 living currently, and with the addition of the three pregnancies due over the next few months, that'll push the Chieng Mai line up to 42 animals! There is only one line more represented in Europe, that being the hyper prolific Motek line, with 44 living animals, a confirmed pregnancy, and I strongly suspect a few more pregnancies that haven't been made public yet either.

There's actually a decent bit of mixture between the two, as there are 11 animals that carry both Chieng Mai and Motek genes as well.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Not to put too fine a point on the matter, it's getting very close to the point where they cannot, and collections may have to start making tough decisions.
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You're not wrong (especially for more prolific lines), however I honestly don't see it being a major issue for a while yet, assuming some international cooperation. The US is absolutely desperate for new animals, and I can imagine many zoos would be happy to form bachelor herds made up of European surplus to replace their dying geriatric female groups. Of course it would be going from non-breeding to non-breeding, but subjectively, an exhibit of three or four lively young bulls can certainly be a crowd pleaser! (especially compared to a group of lethargic, arthritis riddled, senior cows).
 
ThomasNotTom said:
I think it's a shame (a small shame) that Noahs Ark never went on to receive any Asian elephants. I know that they planned to have a breeding group, but they could have easily held a bachelor group, like they do with the Africans. They'd likely have a much larger group, and this fantastic facility would be much better utilised (Especially when you consider that Asians generally do "better" in captivity).
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@ThomasNotTom could Noah's Ark relocate their African Elephant Bulls to breeding herds,and house a bachelor or even a breeding heard of Asian Elephants instead?
 
Hyak_II said:
You're not wrong (especially for more prolific lines), however I honestly don't see it being a major issue for a while yet, assuming some international cooperation. The US is absolutely desperate for new animals, and I can imagine many zoos would be happy to form bachelor herds made up of European surplus to replace their dying geriatric female groups. Of course it would be going from non-breeding to non-breeding, but subjectively, an exhibit of three or four lively young bulls can certainly be a crowd pleaser! (especially compared to a group of lethargic, arthritis riddled, senior cows).
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I'm not sure that imports of elephants into North America would be permitted, unfortunately - so the issue really *is* a pressing one. I suspect that, were it not for EEHV slowing down the increase in surplus males, we might have even reached the point of zoos having to decide whether or not to euthanise male calves by now...... :(
 
TeaLovingDave said:
I'm not sure that imports of elephants into North America would be permitted, unfortunately - so the issue really *is* a pressing one. I suspect that, were it not for EEHV slowing down the increase in surplus males, we might have even reached the point of zoos having to decide whether or not to euthanise male calves by now...... :(
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@TLD, care to elaborate.

BTW: I seem to remember we have already seen an export of African elephant (a.o. Thabo Umasai ex Dresden, now at Pittsburgh Zoo) to US zoos. Also, first exploratory discussions have taken place with AZA elephant management on potential for cooperation.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
@TLD, care to elaborate.
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I've heard on a number of occasions that at current trends, within a decade or so the problem of surplus male elephant calves which cannot be placed is likely to reach the point we have already hit with giraffes, where serious consideration has to be given to having surplus PTS. I've been told similar things about gorillas, too.

As such, the death of male calves to EEHV may have slowed the onset of this issue.

Kifaru Bwana said:
BTW: I seem to remember we have already seen an export of Asiatic elephant (a.o. Thabo Umasai ex Dresden, now at Pittsburgh Zoo) to US zoos. Also, first exploratory discussions have taken place with AZA elephant management on potential for cooperation.
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Glad to hear it :) hopefully this will help make the key difference.
 
@TLD: I am much more optimistic about the bull situation in Europe because the last decade has shown that young bulls can easily be kept with older bulls. That works in a bachelor group, but also in the context of a breeding group. When a young bull can`t be housed with the female herd any longer, he an almost always be housed with his father. Cologne and Emmen are already housing their own bachelor groups (breeding bull(s) with male offspring).That works fine and is usually a situation that is stable for many years. I think this is the new strategy of the EEP; in the future all (or most) breeders are required to also house their own bachelor group. Which is not as difficult and space-intensive as it sounds because you can just put the boys all together. You still need space in the bull barn, of course. But many if not most zoos could house at least one juvenile bull with their breeding bull without too much problems, and most are not using these reserves right now.
 
Jambo said:
Also re. Po Chin being not particularly genetically valuable, I would 100% agree with you.
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I don't think his mother Jangoli( now deceased) from Flamingo Park and later Chester in UK had any other surviving (or breeding) offspring though?
 
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