Asian Elephants in Europe 2021

why would you say that? I would think any older cow would do.

Annie at longleat could use an elephant companion. And she was a circus elephant. Goats are nice but not like another elephant. I don’t know why this zoo is looking for a second elephant cow.

From Karlsruhe's perspective it doesn't matter what kind of cow it is, they just want to give some elephant some nice final years. My personal take is that there are so many problems within the EEP with too many young bulls, with two many old cows without herd, with herds that were unnaturally put together, with torn apart matrilines - that it simply takes many moves (and many years) to sort all of this out. Every move within the EEP helps the studbook keeper to put a tiny bit of the puzzle together and gain some space for further moves, while taking a circus elephant is a nice move for animal right activists but at the same time blocks the EEP.
 
From Karlsruhe's perspective it doesn't matter what kind of cow it is, they just want to give some elephant some nice final years. My personal take is that there are so many problems within the EEP with too many young bulls, with two many old cows without herd, with herds that were unnaturally put together, with torn apart matrilines - that it simply takes many moves (and many years) to sort all of this out. Every move within the EEP helps the studbook keeper to put a tiny bit of the puzzle together and gain some space for further moves, while taking a circus elephant is a nice move for animal right activists but at the same time blocks the EEP.


Thanks. I can see your point now. It’s sensible.
 
I now think that Sandry in my opinion is 100% pregnant but not only her, but also Kalaya
241136501_3143024922648107_2344317117577326198_n.jpg
 
I now think that Sandry in my opinion is 100% pregnant but not only her, but also Kalaya
241136501_3143024922648107_2344317117577326198_n.jpg


I saw that post earlier today on social media. Kalaya is only 7 or 8. The bull is Thisiam. Mekong is with the older cows. Apparently his breeding days are over.
 
Kalaya is 8 this year. If she is pregnant, she wouldn't be very far along, a little under a year at the absolute most.

Sandry is a tricky one. She's looked pregnant to me for the past 3 years, but obviously she hasn't been so far. Moreover, Kalaya is still nursing to some degree, so Sandry still has swollen tits as well.

As for the bulls. Mekong is definitely still a viable breeder, however he generally only prefers older, more confident cows to breed. Thisiam was very socially stunted growing up being kept largely alone from a young age, so sadly it has been an extended learning curve for him to figure out what to do with the cows. The fact that he's a HUGE bull doesn't help either, since it can make things a bit awkward when you don't really know the proper motions to being with, let alone having such a size difference with the cows you are trying to breed. Regardless of that though, shortly after Mekong arrived in 2020 the two bulls pulled each other into strong musths. During this time, Mekong bred Sandry a number of times, and Thisiam exhibited mounting behavior with a number of the cows, especially Kalaya, however I've been unable to determine if he actually *bred* anyone, or was simply doing lots of mounting and poking around without successful breeding.

Either way, we'll know the outcome of the musth breeding frenzy in about 10-12 months time at the most.
 
Kalaya is 8 this year. If she is pregnant, she wouldn't be very far along, a little under a year at the absolute most.

Sandry is a tricky one. She's looked pregnant to me for the past 3 years, but obviously she hasn't been so far. Moreover, Kalaya is still nursing to some degree, so Sandry still has swollen tits as well.

As for the bulls. Mekong is definitely still a viable breeder, however he generally only prefers older, more confident cows to breed. Thisiam was very socially stunted growing up being kept largely alone from a young age, so sadly it has been an extended learning curve for him to figure out what to do with the cows. The fact that he's a HUGE bull doesn't help either, since it can make things a bit awkward when you don't really know the proper motions to being with, let alone having such a size difference with the cows you are trying to breed. Regardless of that though, shortly after Mekong arrived in 2020 the two bulls pulled each other into strong musths. During this time, Mekong bred Sandry a number of times, and Thisiam exhibited mounting behavior with a number of the cows, especially Kalaya, however I've been unable to determine if he actually *bred* anyone, or was simply doing lots of mounting and poking around without successful breeding.

Either way, we'll know the outcome of the musth breeding frenzy in about 10-12 months time at the most.


So Mekong is not considered overly represented genetically yet?
 
So Mekong is not considered overly represented genetically yet?
Pah, not by a long shot! He's a founder bull with a total of 6 living calves, 5 of which are under the age of 5, and that's it for his line at the moment. His son's Voi Nam and Maximillian, and daughter Sanuk are likely going to be his only calves out of this lot to breed, the three with the Emmen cows will likely either be in bachelor holding for life, or exported out of the region.

He's actually one of the more genetically valuable bulls in the EEP at the moment all things considering, only a handful or two would rank above him.
 
So far I have read the following new guidelines in different forums:

1. young bulls are allowed to leave the birth zoo at the earliest at the age of 8
2. elephant cows are only allowed to breed aged 8 to 25
3. births per year is limited to 11 births.
4. Borneo elephants and hybrids are no longer supposed to breed in Europe.
 
According to elephant.se, Ant Bwe Lay at Pont-Scorff Zoo has passed away due to TB. Though he wasn’t the most genetically valuable bull, it’s still unfortunate he passed away pretty young :(

That’s unfortunate. He has no living offspring either. Homaline died a few years ago as well.
That leaves an old cow.
 
According to elephant.se, Ant Bwe Lay at Pont-Scorff Zoo has passed away due to TB. Though he wasn’t the most genetically valuable bull, it’s still unfortunate he passed away pretty young :(
Very sad. He was very young. Elephant breeding seems to end there. They will may have old cows, but I don't think so either, given that the zoo is owned by activists.
 
Very sad. He was very young. Elephant breeding seems to end there. They will may have old cows, but I don't think so either, given that the zoo is owned by activists.

The zoo very much isn’t owned by activists anymore - as far as I know their attempt at releasing the whole of the zoo’s animals list failed, they lost all their money, and they got bought out by someone who actually wants the zoo to be a zoo…from what I can roughly remember at least, I’m probably wrong with some of the details
 
The zoo very much isn’t owned by activists anymore - as far as I know their attempt at releasing the whole of the zoo’s animals list failed, they lost all their money, and they got bought out by someone who actually wants the zoo to be a zoo…from what I can roughly remember at least, I’m probably wrong with some of the details
Oh, thanks for the fix. It's good that it's changed. It wouldn't be good for those animals. It was just their stupid action to get a zoo, but they weren't able to take care of it.
 
Can anyone say why Angele at Budapest was moved at 9 years old leaving behind her mother? La Palmyre kept her half sister and her mother, Alix.
Just curious.
Thanks.
 
Can anyone say why Angele at Budapest was moved at 9 years old leaving behind her mother? La Palmyre kept her half sister and her mother, Alix.
Just curious.
Thanks.
Lots of zoos in Europe sent young breeding aged females to different zoos and separated them from their families, in the not too distant past. I can think of several African females (Duna, Kwanza, Matibi, etc.) but not too many Asian females. However, my guess is that Budapest was looking for a breeding aged female and Angele was a good candidate. Not sure why her mom wasn’t transferred with her though. Maybe space issues or Alix wasn’t suitable for transfer (health issues) at the time?
 
Lots of zoos in Europe sent young breeding aged females to different zoos and separated them from their families, in the not too distant past. I can think of several African females (Duna, Kwanza, Matibi, etc.) but not too many Asian females. However, my guess is that Budapest was looking for a breeding aged female and Angele was a good candidate. Not sure why her mom wasn’t transferred with her though. Maybe space issues or Alix wasn’t suitable for transfer (health issues) at the time?


Thanks. That may be true. At least angele seemed to make it okay being a mom by herself. All she had was boys though (living). Hopefully her next calf will be a female.
 
Thanks. That may be true. At least angele seemed to make it okay being a mom by herself. All she had was boys though (living). Hopefully her next calf will be a female.
Yeah, it’s very unfortunate her first born Asha, a very genetically valuable female calf succumbed to EEHV. If she had survived Budapest would have been able to house a multi generational herd within the next few years, but now they will have to wait 10+ years.
 
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