Apparently he was kept chained up in Hamburg. And the bull facility behind the scenes was pretty bad. He shows the typical head bobbing that is traumatic. He's very insecure and apparently get's bossed around by the tinnier and younger Sam.
Asian Elephants in Europe 2023
- Thread starter Hyak_II
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I hadn’t seen this posted yet but Shamu has fully recovered from EEHV
I hope Marlar will have a female calf very soon.
Mr.Ivory
Well-Known Member
Don Chung has arrived at Cottbus Zoo
"Earlier today at the elephant temple it was time to say goodbye to our elephant cow Don Chung. With a special transport, she went to the Cottbus Animal Park, where she arrived safely in the early afternoon and has already moved to her new home. In the next few days she will be carefully accustomed to the new surroundings and meet the 52-year-old elephant cow, Sundali, who has been standing alone in recent years. The settling in process is accompanied by one of our caregivers. Unfortunately, Don Chung was not allowed to integrate into the new herd association with Leitkuh Kewa, so with a heavy heart and above all for the sake of Dun Chung, we decided - also in accordance with the European Conservation Breeding Program - to give her away. We very much hope that with Sundali she gets a companion on her side that she will get along well."
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=618083297022427&set=a.163354239162004
"Earlier today at the elephant temple it was time to say goodbye to our elephant cow Don Chung. With a special transport, she went to the Cottbus Animal Park, where she arrived safely in the early afternoon and has already moved to her new home. In the next few days she will be carefully accustomed to the new surroundings and meet the 52-year-old elephant cow, Sundali, who has been standing alone in recent years. The settling in process is accompanied by one of our caregivers. Unfortunately, Don Chung was not allowed to integrate into the new herd association with Leitkuh Kewa, so with a heavy heart and above all for the sake of Dun Chung, we decided - also in accordance with the European Conservation Breeding Program - to give her away. We very much hope that with Sundali she gets a companion on her side that she will get along well."
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=618083297022427&set=a.163354239162004
about Don Chubb’s move, I have seen people being upset about this on social media but I could not understand why. Some people felt she should be integrated with at least part of the herd. I am not in that country so I don’t know the full story. This is not a typical AR protest.
I hope all people and elephants will be happy in this move especially Don Chung who has been at Leipzig for decades.
I think Don Chung will ultimately be fine and finally experience some peace in her older age, she’s a generally social cow who has lived with a wide variety of animals over the years at the Leipzig “in-n-out”.
I think the main reason people have issue with this transfer (myself included) is less about DC specifically, and more because of Leipzig’s management on a whole. They just LOVE trying to put various animals together in different configurations, splitting matriline’s, and transferring animals in and out. They’ve had more animals come in and go out of their facility than any others over the past 15 years, it would seem. Mekong, Don Chung, Hoa, Trinh, Saida, Salvana, Thura, Rani, Chanda, Gajendra, Nang Thein, Voi Nam, Kewa, Pantha, Thuza, Astra, and Edgar, are all animals that have lived there within the past 15 years. And only ONE (Voi Nam) was born there. They’ve also had a number of unsuccessful pregnancies or calves that have passed away.
Ultimately Leipzig finally seems to have what they want (a cohesive matriarchal group and a socially savvy bull who is willing to breed any cow in front of him), but I desperately hope they get Rani out of there once her calf is old enough. I have no doubt they’ll eventually find an excuse to transfer out Astra since she’s just a “useless non breeding cow”, but I worry they might try to hold onto Rani simply by virtue of being a breeding female, despite the fact that they already have three from the Berlin group now. She’s never going to socially integrate into that group, Kewa won’t permit it, so essentially her only social partner now is Voi Nam. I really wish they had sent her out with Don Chung as the two did seem to get on quite well together, but since that ship has sailed, I suppose all one can hope for is that Rani will have a cow calf herself, and then be transferred out to start a matriline of her own.
I think the main reason people have issue with this transfer (myself included) is less about DC specifically, and more because of Leipzig’s management on a whole. They just LOVE trying to put various animals together in different configurations, splitting matriline’s, and transferring animals in and out. They’ve had more animals come in and go out of their facility than any others over the past 15 years, it would seem. Mekong, Don Chung, Hoa, Trinh, Saida, Salvana, Thura, Rani, Chanda, Gajendra, Nang Thein, Voi Nam, Kewa, Pantha, Thuza, Astra, and Edgar, are all animals that have lived there within the past 15 years. And only ONE (Voi Nam) was born there. They’ve also had a number of unsuccessful pregnancies or calves that have passed away.
Ultimately Leipzig finally seems to have what they want (a cohesive matriarchal group and a socially savvy bull who is willing to breed any cow in front of him), but I desperately hope they get Rani out of there once her calf is old enough. I have no doubt they’ll eventually find an excuse to transfer out Astra since she’s just a “useless non breeding cow”, but I worry they might try to hold onto Rani simply by virtue of being a breeding female, despite the fact that they already have three from the Berlin group now. She’s never going to socially integrate into that group, Kewa won’t permit it, so essentially her only social partner now is Voi Nam. I really wish they had sent her out with Don Chung as the two did seem to get on quite well together, but since that ship has sailed, I suppose all one can hope for is that Rani will have a cow calf herself, and then be transferred out to start a matriline of her own.
There are 2 reasons why people are not happy with Don Chungs transfer: 1. many frequent visitors feel it`s "unfair" that all their old elephants had to go to make space for the Kewa/Astra family from Berlin; and 2. many people are critical that Rani and Don Chung were seperated.
Leipzig had a lot of bad luck with their elephant herd, and a lot of that was not their fault. For example, when it became clear that their original trio of females Trinh, Don Chung and Hoa would not breed anymore, they got the mother-dauther-pair Indra and Saida. But after Indra got pregnant, Hagenbeck (who owned Indra) ordered her back home without her mother. That was not Leipzigs fault (although they should not have taken Indra and Saida without the iron clad promise that they could keep both). Then a few years later they got 2 more females from Hagenbeck, Thura and her daugther Rani. Thura was Saida`s longterm best friend and the hope was to reunite these 3 and that they would form the basis of a new breeding group. However, Thura`s maternal behavoir was always problematic, and when she was reunited with Saida, she became aggressive against Rani and Rani had to be seperated. Thura later had a failed pregnancy and then died, leaving Saida alone because she could never be integrated with the other females in Leipzig. Leipzig then tried to integrate Rani with the original females Trinh, Don Chung and Hoa, and they more or less accpeted Rani. Hoa and Trinh only tolerated her, but with Don Chung, there was a bit more of a relationship, especially when Rani had her first calf. Don Chung is very maternal and cared well for Rani`s calf while Rani herself needed the help. At that time, it looked like Rani would become the founding mother of Leipzig`s elephant family.
But then Leipzig got the offer to take over the Kewa family and that was obviously too good to resist; much better then waiting for Rani to have female calves... To make space for them, Trinh and Hoa were moved out, while Don Chung and Rani stayed with the hope to be integrated with Kewa family. That was definately a stupid plan because unrelated females can almost never be integrated into a bonded family gruop (there are very few exeptions). Mixing Don Chung with the Kewa clan predictably failed almost from the beginning, and with Rani, it didnt go much better. Rani actually got along well with the younger females Thuza and Pantha, but Kewa and Astra made clear almost from the beginning that they didn't want her in their family. The situation today is that Rani can only be kept together with Kewa and Astra when bull Voi Nam is present because Astra is afraid of Voi Nam. So the last year or so, Rani spent most of her time with Don Chung, and during the day she was for a few hours with the Kewa/Astra group when Voi Nam was present. But Rani spent far more time with Don Chung, and the situation with Kewa/Astra is pretty terrible for Rani.
However, from what I have seen, Rani and Don Chung were not really close; its more like they tolerated each other without being really bonded. That's why I understand the decision to move Don Chung out alone. However, Rani`s situation in the Kewa family is pretty bad and the best for her would be to be moved elsewhere too after the birth of her calf. Finding a place with a better social situation for her will be a challange, though (at least within Europe).
Leipzig had a lot of bad luck with their elephant herd, and a lot of that was not their fault. For example, when it became clear that their original trio of females Trinh, Don Chung and Hoa would not breed anymore, they got the mother-dauther-pair Indra and Saida. But after Indra got pregnant, Hagenbeck (who owned Indra) ordered her back home without her mother. That was not Leipzigs fault (although they should not have taken Indra and Saida without the iron clad promise that they could keep both). Then a few years later they got 2 more females from Hagenbeck, Thura and her daugther Rani. Thura was Saida`s longterm best friend and the hope was to reunite these 3 and that they would form the basis of a new breeding group. However, Thura`s maternal behavoir was always problematic, and when she was reunited with Saida, she became aggressive against Rani and Rani had to be seperated. Thura later had a failed pregnancy and then died, leaving Saida alone because she could never be integrated with the other females in Leipzig. Leipzig then tried to integrate Rani with the original females Trinh, Don Chung and Hoa, and they more or less accpeted Rani. Hoa and Trinh only tolerated her, but with Don Chung, there was a bit more of a relationship, especially when Rani had her first calf. Don Chung is very maternal and cared well for Rani`s calf while Rani herself needed the help. At that time, it looked like Rani would become the founding mother of Leipzig`s elephant family.
But then Leipzig got the offer to take over the Kewa family and that was obviously too good to resist; much better then waiting for Rani to have female calves... To make space for them, Trinh and Hoa were moved out, while Don Chung and Rani stayed with the hope to be integrated with Kewa family. That was definately a stupid plan because unrelated females can almost never be integrated into a bonded family gruop (there are very few exeptions). Mixing Don Chung with the Kewa clan predictably failed almost from the beginning, and with Rani, it didnt go much better. Rani actually got along well with the younger females Thuza and Pantha, but Kewa and Astra made clear almost from the beginning that they didn't want her in their family. The situation today is that Rani can only be kept together with Kewa and Astra when bull Voi Nam is present because Astra is afraid of Voi Nam. So the last year or so, Rani spent most of her time with Don Chung, and during the day she was for a few hours with the Kewa/Astra group when Voi Nam was present. But Rani spent far more time with Don Chung, and the situation with Kewa/Astra is pretty terrible for Rani.
However, from what I have seen, Rani and Don Chung were not really close; its more like they tolerated each other without being really bonded. That's why I understand the decision to move Don Chung out alone. However, Rani`s situation in the Kewa family is pretty bad and the best for her would be to be moved elsewhere too after the birth of her calf. Finding a place with a better social situation for her will be a challange, though (at least within Europe).
It was right to move Don Chung away from Leipzig and it would be right to move Rani, but I am not sure if they do this.
Rani would probably work out with her older sister Ratna in Münster. In Münster they have four cows that don't click together - the "young ones" Ratna and Corny (31/26) vs the old ones Tefi and Kanaudi (both 55+). Kanaudi is blind and thus they do not want to burden her with a move anymore, plus they can't separate her from Tefi. On the other side they don't want to move Ratna and Corny as then they need to fear to become a senior's residence while with Ratna and Corny they have a chance to get Rani from Leipzig or possibly even Yashoda/Kandy from Hamburg if they don't get moving with their own situation. I guess one of their old cows needs to die to sort out the situation...
It is Shwe Myarr who has moved to Zoo Lodz. In Plock, Mong Tine has since been joined by Moma from Cologne.
Elephant bull Kanvar may stay at Planckendael for now. It seemed that Kai-Mook and May Tagu had no interest in him, until now.
Keepers have been crate-training Kanvar for months; he was supposed to be swapped with a bull from a zoo in Asia. In the meantime, he has grown some more and seems to be impressing Kai-Mook. A mating has even been observed. May Tagu is not yet interested in him. If the mating proves successful this autumn, Kanvar might stay on as a breeding bull after all.
Source: Krijgt Kai-Mook een baby van Kanvar? Olifantenstier mag voorlopig toch in Planckendael blijven
Keepers have been crate-training Kanvar for months; he was supposed to be swapped with a bull from a zoo in Asia. In the meantime, he has grown some more and seems to be impressing Kai-Mook. A mating has even been observed. May Tagu is not yet interested in him. If the mating proves successful this autumn, Kanvar might stay on as a breeding bull after all.
Source: Krijgt Kai-Mook een baby van Kanvar? Olifantenstier mag voorlopig toch in Planckendael blijven
Considering how genetically valuable Kanvar is, sending him to the UK probably wouldn’t be the best choice (while there *are* some genetically valuable cows that he would pair extremely well with at both blackpool and Woburn, blackpool already has a fairly valuable bull, and given Woburns breeding history, I feel like his breeding potential would be wasted there). Dublin will likely be looking for a new breeding bull once Yasmin and her get move to the states, but their group isn’t particularly genetically valuable (although the multiple exports to the states and Australia have definitely bumped them up somewhat!)
That said, I would personally still like to see him moved out from Plankendael as well. Not only are they wasting Kanvars potential, but May Tagu’s as well. She’s one of only three surviving offspring of the deceased bull Luka, and by far the most valuable of the four potential breeding cows there. Bringing in a few founder from Asia would be very nice, but there are plenty of good choices in Europe as well. Sang Raja, Thai and Maurice are all older than Kanvar, proven with multiple cows, and fairly valuable, just to name three. For the later two, a straight across bull swap could even occur if so desired. Even some of the offspring of the late, great Radza are creeping close to 20 years old, in bachelor holding, and large enough to dominate the cows.
That said, I would personally still like to see him moved out from Plankendael as well. Not only are they wasting Kanvars potential, but May Tagu’s as well. She’s one of only three surviving offspring of the deceased bull Luka, and by far the most valuable of the four potential breeding cows there. Bringing in a few founder from Asia would be very nice, but there are plenty of good choices in Europe as well. Sang Raja, Thai and Maurice are all older than Kanvar, proven with multiple cows, and fairly valuable, just to name three. For the later two, a straight across bull swap could even occur if so desired. Even some of the offspring of the late, great Radza are creeping close to 20 years old, in bachelor holding, and large enough to dominate the cows.
I'm surprised they published this themselves, since my last visit (12/05/2023) they told me to wait with this info. I taught they wanted to wait for confirmation, before publishing. Also May Tagu was in cycle on my visit as well as Suki. So Kanvar was in his bachelor pad.
That being said, I think Kanvar is just to valuable to trade. Both wild caught parents single offspring. Breeding with the herd at Planckendael is just the best match. To be honest I think they needed to give him more time. I also think Planckendael is making it difficult for themselves by publishing everything to soon. I think they should just keep it on the back-burner and wait a little.
Also if the coordinator really feared something they would use artificial insemination or IVF or so. However patience is key.
Emmen has so many sons of Radza that none are being utilized! They are still being held at the place they were born at! Soon there will be so many boys, even the new calf is a male. I have yet to read anything about the action taken to place them. Granted, not all will be in breeding situations as there is too many but it’s about time.
Well that's exactly it. Kanvar's potential is being absolutely wasted at Plankendael right now. While he *is* a healthy, younger bull, and should in theory live a long life, there's nothing saying he won't drop dead of a heart attack, or some other unpreventable event, tomorrow. Especially since they seem unwilling to separate the cows out to breed with Kanvar, that's another 3 years of waiting before the two youngsters are 8 years old and of "appropriate" first breeding age, since they all seem to cycle close together. The girls at Plankendael aren't his best possible match any stretch, although considering how valuable Kanvar is, he is a good match for them, if that makes sense. Cows that would better suit Kanvar in terms of genetic value would be Noor Jahan and Esha at Blackpool, Tarli and Damini at Woburn, any of the cows at Koln, Aye Chan May at Pairi Daiza, Vishesh at Ostrava, Donna at Osnabruck, the girls at La Palmyre, all the cows at Copenhagen, and many more I won't bother listing.
Ultimately, as I mentioned earlier, the only girl at Plankendael who is really genetically valuable is May Tagu, who "only" has 13 relatives in Europe (plus one in North America). Kai Mook, being out of Alexander, has many relatives, and Suki, being sired by Chang, is also related to a large number of animals in Europe. Tun Kai is the worst, as she is a blend of Alexander AND Chang genes. These other three are all related to 30+ different animals spread throughout Europe, North America, and Australia.
IVF is nonexistent with elephants, and while AI is absolutely an option, it is still extremely expensive, requires a fairly hefty amount of training for both animals involved, and is generally less effective than natural breeding. It's senseless to me for them to keep twiddling their thumbs and retaining him at Plankendael right now. He's one of the most valuable animals in Europe, and *does* know what to do. Even if they just send him off for a few years, he could go to Pairi Daiza or some other nearby facility with younger breeding cows, and gain both valuable experience as a breeding bull as well as actually starting to sire offspring. Send him back in three years, Suki and Tun Kai will be of age for the EEP to allow breeding (so no need to worry about separations), Kanvar will be older, larger, and more experienced, and therefore better able to dominate and successfully breed May Tagu, and he could very well have actual offspring on the ground elsewhere, ensuring his genetic legacy carries on should anything happen to him upon his return before siring offspring with the Plankendael group.
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