Approved by the SSP there yes but they have more than one breedable female but they are leery due to surplus of males.
Asian Elephants in Europe 2024
- Thread starter MennoPebesma
- Start date
Approved by the SSP there yes but they have more than one breedable female but they are leery due to surplus of males.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
It has been confirmed that EEHV was the cause of her death.
Update on Passing of Asian elephant Avani - Dublin Zoo
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Unsurprising. With Aung Bo arriving its most likely she caught it from him. Fingers crossed none of the other young girls also pass from it.
Unless they release the strain she died from and the strains Aung Bo has been exposed to, there’s no way of telling. Honestly, I wouldn’t be so fast as to blame Aung Bo for this death. The main cause of EEHV flair up is stress within the herd, yes a new bull can bring said stress however he hasn’t even shared contact with their herd. He would also of had to be shedding the EEHV strain she died from at said time of contact. I find it highly unlikely any of that has happened and that he was the cause.
Zinda (the other 8 year old) is currently being treated for signs of EEHV as stated in their post.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I sincerely hope Dublin doesn't loose any more of their girls. Samiya is still within the at risk category as well. I don't think Dublin has had a herpes flair up ever, so this is especially devastating to see their animals begin to catch it when they're JUST beginning to take steps into breeding again.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
Oh man, this is very concerning! I'm absolutely praying to God that Zinda survives because she (like Avani) is only just getting to the breeding age and it would be pain in the a** to lose two breeding candidates when the zoo is just getting back into the elephant breeding business. And to make matters worse, Samiya is also in the EEHV-vulnerable age, so hopefully she doesn't get it too. Dublin has been one of the few lucky ones over the years who have (or used to) be a bigger elephant breeding hub when it comes to EEHV, and we really don't want them to have to experience the awful luck other zoos have had with EEHV in the past.
To be fair, I don't think it's reasonable to assume there isn't a coincidence here.
Stress with elephants can easily be achieved even if they aren't in physical contact. Just the presence of a new bull within their vicinity can cause reactions amongst the herd. Especially since Dublin haven't had a bull on site in five years.
If Aung Bo and the rest of the herd shared the same space at different times (the first step of introductions), it could explain how the virus was transmitted.
Exactly. It's similar to Zurich and thei EEHV problem - the two matrilines don't like another and the wall between them doesn't avoid the stress level as they of course know that the others are nearby. I am not an expert but I am not sure if the effect of the virus is so fast that Aung Bo already caused it within the two weeks. I would definitely add the severe stress of the group structure change by sending parts of their family to the US to the mix.
I feared the worst when I read this! As I wondered before ..., and suggested as EEHV? Then ... vehemently denier it was ..., it is the real article.
Even if the arrival of Aung Bo might just have been a mere coincidence ...., that 2-3 young elephants coming away with the virus is however not a coincidence! I am not saying there is a link, I just wondered if the zoo should perhaps have pre-started protective measures beforehand...
Aung Bo is surely not to blame. Stress may be the reason why EEHV flares up, but it is NOT the reason why calves are dying. Stress is a normal part of life for all elephants (and all humans and all other animal species), both in captivity and in the wild. All elephants are infected with serveral different strains of EEHV. It is perfactly normal that from time to time, one elephant starts shedding the virus. It may happen during the introduction of a new bull, but it is not avoidable through NOT bringing in new elephants (you can only delay it, which does not help). EEHV is only a problem and the cause of death if the calves have not enough antibodies against the virus(es). High antibody titer = zero problems. All calves are born with high levels of antibodies, they get them through the placenta from their mother. These antibodies prtect them from severe disease during their first year of life. But at the age of 12 months or so, the maternal antibodies start to disappear. A calf needs to be infected with EEHV BEFORE the maternal antibodies get too low to offer protection. The reason why many calves in zoos have low antibody levels is that they get the first infection with one (or serveral) strains of EEHV too late, after the maternal antibodies have weaned. And the reason for that is probably that many zoo herds are too small and that zoo elephants have not enough stress to shedd the virus(es) often during the first year of life of a calf so that the calf goes through the first infections with EEHV1 A, EEHV 1B and EEHV 5 during a time when they still have a lot of maternal antibodies to protect them from actually getting sick.
By the way, Dublin had EEHV in their herd before - Zinda was sick when she was 2 but (obviously) survived. And yes, the zoo should have been proactive - as all zoos that house young asian elephants need to be. Every calf age 12 months or older needs to be tested regularly for antibodies against all strains of EEHV, and if antibody levels get too low, the zoo needs to take preventive measures like screening the herd weekly for EEHV and having a treatment plan ready in case of a flare up, adult elephants trained for blood donation, plasma frozen and staff schooled. Zoos should also trying the new method of giving calves with low antibodies a transfusion of plasma from a donor that itself has high levels of antibodies against EEHV. Hogle zoo did this with their young female african elephant recently (before her transfer to Kansas) and she did survive a later infection. And Cincinnati Zoo just published that the 2 half brothers of Avani and Zinda who now live in Cinci were found to have low antibody level against a certain strain of EEHV and recieved preventive plasma infusions to help them beat the disease in case of an outbreak (which will come sooner or later). It is not yet proven that this method really works, but zoos should everything until the vaccine is proven to work and avainable for all zoos.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I find it surprising that Dublin hasn't been taking any preventative measures against EEHV. I would've thought that those tactics would be zoo standard nowadays, especially with the number of deaths over recent years. I supoose since they've never had a fatality then they've never had a "reason" to be hyper vigilant, but now I really hope they're more proactive.
I agree that preventative measures should have been in place or must be in place in any zoo with a breeding group and calf, juvenile and sub-adult elephants (as and when EEHV lurks and flares up is literally weeks too late. Provision of EEHV blood antibodies pre-viral disease phase, monitoring présence of active virus in blood stream and plasma storage for when acute infections present themselves.
Sadly there are still a lot of zoos that do nothing in regard to EEHV until a calf is visibly sick, which is almost always too late.
For example, when the young female calf got sick in Prague Zoo last year and died, the zoo published sort of a diary what happened when. And this diary reads like a protocol of failure. They did not have weekly screenings for EEHV, they failed to act when the calf refused to take part in the training (which is often a first sign of EEHV) and they failed to act when she was visibly ill a few days later - they could not get a blood sample for diagnosis, and instead of sedating her to get and start treating her for EEHV as recommended, they waited ANOTHER day to sedate her and take that blood sample. And after they finally had a diagnosis, it took hours to get blood from one of the other elephants, and the calf died right before (or during?) the first blood transfusion. It makes me so angry that even big zoos with a big name are so negligent.
For example, when the young female calf got sick in Prague Zoo last year and died, the zoo published sort of a diary what happened when. And this diary reads like a protocol of failure. They did not have weekly screenings for EEHV, they failed to act when the calf refused to take part in the training (which is often a first sign of EEHV) and they failed to act when she was visibly ill a few days later - they could not get a blood sample for diagnosis, and instead of sedating her to get and start treating her for EEHV as recommended, they waited ANOTHER day to sedate her and take that blood sample. And after they finally had a diagnosis, it took hours to get blood from one of the other elephants, and the calf died right before (or during?) the first blood transfusion. It makes me so angry that even big zoos with a big name are so negligent.
I just want to add a little balance to the discussion. I don't know the protocol of Dublin but I'm familiar with the protocol of other zoos. Some zoos do daily/semi daily(if the animal doesn't want to go into the box that day) health checks including for EEHV others weekly others not so much apparently. Even having the daily protocol Isn't enough to guarantee survival.
So I would suggest we don't judge Dublin zoo if we don't know their protocol.
I also want to add that the current treatment plan accessible is to give the elephants a large dose of Anti viral drugs. This sounds easy but you have to imagine the dose depends on the elephant goes from anywhere between 70-100 pills I don't know the exact number. These antivirals can be administered orally or rectally. Getting these pills inside the elephant and keeping them in is hardly easy. Also I want to add that these drugs are expensive, so wasting them with regurgitation or excretion are not a wanted way to go about it. Anti-body therapy isn't wildly available yet. It's easy to look at the scientific possibilities but remember field and theory aren't the same. Lot's of the methods described above aren't available really expensive and not wildly tested.
Next up giving preventive medication can have very real consequences on their health and I don't know if they are shown to prevent flare ups.
The tag has a protocol described: EEHV Treatments from the European TAG
Which includes a lot even instructions for plasma collection.
So while I get the frustration, just be a little kinder since we don't know the circumstances behind the scenes.
And even if they would do everything right, there still is a chance she would have died.
So I would suggest we don't judge Dublin zoo if we don't know their protocol.
I also want to add that the current treatment plan accessible is to give the elephants a large dose of Anti viral drugs. This sounds easy but you have to imagine the dose depends on the elephant goes from anywhere between 70-100 pills I don't know the exact number. These antivirals can be administered orally or rectally. Getting these pills inside the elephant and keeping them in is hardly easy. Also I want to add that these drugs are expensive, so wasting them with regurgitation or excretion are not a wanted way to go about it. Anti-body therapy isn't wildly available yet. It's easy to look at the scientific possibilities but remember field and theory aren't the same. Lot's of the methods described above aren't available really expensive and not wildly tested.
Next up giving preventive medication can have very real consequences on their health and I don't know if they are shown to prevent flare ups.
The tag has a protocol described: EEHV Treatments from the European TAG
Which includes a lot even instructions for plasma collection.
So while I get the frustration, just be a little kinder since we don't know the circumstances behind the scenes.
And even if they would do everything right, there still is a chance she would have died.
EEHV is indeed protected in the initial years via antibodies received from the calves mother. They also develop immunity to those strains they are initially exposed to during this period. Once they stop suckling, around eighteen months they consequently lose the antibodies they were receiving and from that point on are at risk when exposed to a completely new strain they hadn't been exposed to before.
In most cases, the calves do develop antibodies during their first year of life. As you say, larger herds result in more immunity as calves gain the opportunity to be exposed to a variety of strains and therefore reduce their chances of falling ill later on.
In Dublin's case, their herd is a matriline so from what I understand they should relatively carry the same strain/s. Especially as EEHV was already present within the herd before, the calves should have been exposed to the strain/s within the herd before. In the small chance they haven't, this could've still easily have been re-ignited as a result of stress - ie. having a new bull on site. Or, perhaps, being introduced to a new strain brought in from Aung Bo.
I think it's important to remember nobody on here is essentially blaming Dublin or Aung Bo - more so trying to understand how this has occurred. Everyone here is hoping for the best with Zinda and the rest of the herd.
Well, no, being in a large herd because there’s “more strains” of herpes has nothing to do with it. The reason larger herds with a dynamic range of ages and sexes, generally speaking, offer better calf survival rates is because there is a greater amount of periodic viral shedding from the various mature animals, which keeps antibody levels high in the calves thanks to the regular exposure. A new strain that they don’t have any immunity to would be just as fatal to a calf from a large herd as one in a small herd.
As for Dublin and Avani specifically, as mentioned, there’s no concrete way to pin it upon the arrival of Aung Bo, although his arrival and the associated social stress likely did result in a viral flareup from one of the mature animals present in the herd. However it’s every chance as likely that it was Bernadine or Asha that had the flareup and passed it along as opposed to Aung Bo. Especially if neither of the mature cows have had a flareup in the past few years, Avani’s antibodies would be rather low regardless of which strain it was.
And as is the case with exposing the calves to a variety of strains as well. The increased periodic shedding as you mention does have a impact on calves and their antibody levels. Individual elephants are known to carry different strains, although it's not known why this is the case. So obviously a larger herd with more variety of individuals would in fact have more strains present also increasing exposure. Both factors are present surrounding the 'larger herd' discussion.
Interesting point you bring up. Considering Dublin's herd has been rather stagnant in the previous years with no bull and no births, there wouldn't have been as much significant stress within the herd as you would've usually seen within a herd socially. This could possibly explain the lack of a 'flare-up' within the herd. It would also explain Zinda becoming sick yet again, although hopefully this has meant she has the antibodies required to pull through this time around (despite the fact they may be low).