Asian Elephants in Europe 2024

Pongo said:
You have a pregnancy in a highly problematic EEHV environment and want to merge matrilines for even more stress?
Click to expand...
Why not attempt a merge now that one of the two conflicting aninals has passed away? There isn't a calf on the ground yet so there's no current EEHV risk anyway. Trying to merge them before the calf arrives would, if successful, decrease the stress of having two groups.
Farha and Panang also have lost the value of having an experienced cow in their midst, which Indi would potentially fill.
Its clear holding two separate groups simply doesn't work, and now that both matrilines are down to two individuals each, a merge attempt now makes sense. Even if it isn't successful, I don't see a reason not to try.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Why not attempt a merge now that one of the two conflicting aninals has passed away? There isn't a calf on the ground yet so there's no current EEHV risk anyway. Trying to merge them before the calf arrives would, if successful, decrease the stress of having two groups.
Farha and Panang also have lost the value of having an experienced cow in their midst, which Indi would potentially fill.
Its clear holding two separate groups simply doesn't work, and now that both matrilines are down to two individuals each, a merge attempt now makes sense. Even if it isn't successful, I don't see a reason not to try.
Click to expand...

honestly, why not just focus on one matriline and that is with Indi and Chandra (who is 22 and should be bred by now). Panang has not produced a calf that lives beyond six months old with numerous stillborns/miscarriages and Farha had 3 calves, 2 died at birth (still borns or miscarriages?) and one died of herpes.

something is going on with the two sisters that they are not producing viable calves most of the time.

Thoughts?
 
Introducing the 2 families is a horrible idea. 2 unrelated matrilineal families can almost never be kept together. A female elephant who has female relatives will prefer their company over unrelated females, and that almost always results in aggression against unrelated herd members. In the last 30 years, we have seen that in almost every zoo in Europe that had breedings groups consistent of more then one unrelated breeding females. Mixing unrelated matrilineal just makes no sense. None at all.

And I don’t see a connection between the EEHV deaths at Zurich and the fact that they keep 2 groups. Stress is NOT the reason why EEHV kills young zoo elephants. They die when they become infected at a time when the antibodies they get before birth from their mother have disappeared. To survive EEHV, calves need to become infected for the first time when the maternal antibodies are still high, which means during the first year of life. EEHV does become a problem when the adults in the herd shed the virus too infrequently in sufficient numbers to infect the young herd members. Therefore stress may actually be beneficial to avoid deadly EEHV outbreaks because stress can trigger virus shedding of the infected adults more often (and all adults are infected).

I don’t think there is an underlying reason for the failure of Panang and Farha to raise their calves. Panang was aggressive against her first babys and needed a couple of tries to figure it out. Then the last one which she did raise well died from an unrelated illness, and then the bull was shipped out due to construction work. My guess is when he came back, the reproductive break may have already been too long for her. Not all females can tolerate breaks of 10 years between pregnancies.

Regarding Farha, she had bad luck too, nothing more. First calf raised successfully until EEHV struck. Second calf sadly injured during or after birth. Third calf born with an underdeveloped lung (if I remember right).
 
Yassa said:
And I don’t see a connection between the EEHV deaths at Zurich and the fact that they keep 2 groups. Stress is NOT the reason why EEHV kills young zoo elephants. They die when they become infected at a time when the antibodies they get before birth from their mother have disappeared. To survive EEHV, calves need to become infected for the first time when the maternal antibodies are still high, which means during the first year of life. EEHV does become a problem when the adults in the herd shed the virus too infrequently in sufficient numbers to infect the young herd members. Therefore stress may actually be beneficial to avoid deadly EEHV outbreaks because stress can trigger virus shedding of the infected adults more often (and all adults are infected).
Click to expand...

The elephants definitely do not die because of stress but stress plays a role. There are different kinds of stress. Like you say, stress can even be something positive - if it's short termed, e.g. when you are walking in the dark and you are hearing noises, then stress makes your body stay alert and attentive - and can even be a life saver in such a situation. However, permanent stress is not good for any body. When you have permannet trouble with a neighbor, colleague or class mate, you are much more prone to getting infections and sicknesses, your body is not starting at 100% to fight a new challenge, which can also be a simple infection virus that has nothing to do with the cause for the stress. In the nature groups who don't like another can go seperate ways and things are fine, but in a zoo you can build a high wall between them and still they will hear and smell the unwanted group and know that they are around. I do not believe that it is a coincidence that the fatal EEHV outbreak often happened in groups that don't like another (Zurich, Hamburg) or after changing a working family structure as in Dublin.

Little quotation:
"Stress factors experienced by the herd, such as the loss of a herd mate or a big change in the weather, can trigger a new outbreak." (Zooscience, Stop EEHV: A big step forward in the battle against elephant herpes)
 
The problem is there is a) no proof that the elephants in Zurich or Hagenbeck actually suffer chronic stress that is detrimental to their health and b) all scientific evidence points to the fact that the calves who die have low antibodies. If they have sufficient antibodies, they can have tons of stress and will not die from EEHV (not saying that chronic stress is not harmful , though, but there is no evidence it plays any role in EEHV deaths).

Check out the studies from Tamara Hoornweg, it’s all in there. She also points out the probable reason why so many calves in zoos get infected too late - it’s the small group sizes in many zoos. Elephant calves that grow up in large herds (more then 10 elephants) have a much lower risk of dying from EEHV - zoos like Hannover, Cologne and Emmen never lost a single calf of EEHV despite having dozens of births (and having lots of stress due to fights between different matrilines…).
 
It is for sure though that the matrilines in Zurich and Hagenbeck don't like another. You are right that the situation in other places did not necessarily result in an outbreak. I would put it in a way that the more they are kept in natural constellations also in captivity the better it is for the animals.

Regarding the group size... not sure where I read it but as far as I know Asian elephants live in much smaller groups than Africans. IIRC the average size of Asian matrilines was mentioned to be at 6.
 
Of course it’s best if elephants live in natural (family) constellations. But there is no evidence that this has anything to do with deadly EEHV outbreaks.

Regarding group sizes, Asians do indeed live in much smaller family groups then Africans (under good conditions). But even if the core family groups of Asians are no bigger then 10 animals, Asian elephants are a species that live in a fission fusion system and have regular social contact with other families and adult bulls. And social contacts possibility to exchange viruses like EEHV.
 
Elephant bull Maurice will be leaving DierenPark Amersfoort in a few months. Where he will go has not been anounced. The zoo's curator told this in their own podcast. After his move, there won't be a new bul immediately, but there will be again in the longer term.

This also means that every Dutch zoo with a breeding herd of Asian elephants in recent or upcoming times has moved their bull and/or received a new bull.
 
Good news. While the loss of two young cows just entering their prime breeding age is incredibly tragic, with three remaining cows, two who’re proven and one of which is at the ideal age for her first conception, I have no doubt Dublin will be able to bring the herd numbers back up again in (relatively speaking) short order
 
Hyak_II said:
Good news. While the loss of two young cows just entering their prime breeding age is incredibly tragic, with three remaining cows, two who’re proven and one of which is at the ideal age for her first conception, I have no doubt Dublin will be able to bring the herd numbers back up again in (relatively speaking) short order
Click to expand...

I thought Bernadine is retired?
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
In Dublin's defense, they don't hold Emmen's infamous male birth record :p

However I can see where breeding Dina again would have its risks. She did neglect her last calf after all
Click to expand...


Oh I know.

neglected? That’s a surprise to me. I know that Dina didn’t have the best start of life with moving around before returning to Rotterdam but I understood she was distraught over her first calf (and possibly the second). Then she became a really good mom. I was told she mourned for an extended period by someone that knew of the situation but this was years ago.


they blamed it on a variety of things but not on her. Granted she probably didn’t know best as this was in early 1990s before zoos starting keeping mothers and daughters together. But Irma was a temperamental cow from what I understand, not getting along with other cows not related to her so maybe that’s part of it.
 
ZCChip said:
Oh I know.

neglected? That’s a surprise to me. I know that Dina didn’t have the best start of life with moving around before returning to Rotterdam but I understood she was distraught over her first calf (and possibly the second). Then she became a really good mom. I was told she mourned for an extended period by someone that knew of the situation but this was years ago.


they blamed it on a variety of things but not on her. Granted she probably didn’t know best as this was in early 1990s before zoos starting keeping mothers and daughters together. But Irma was a temperamental cow from what I understand, not getting along with other cows not related to her so maybe that’s part of it.
Click to expand...
From what I understand she refused to nurse Avani and keepers had to bottle feed her. She did just fine with her other calves at Dublin before her though I thought.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
From what I understand she refused to nurse Avani and keepers had to bottle feed her. She did just fine with her other calves at Dublin before her though I thought.
Click to expand...
If a mother does not accept her calf in the first few hours or days after birth there usually is a very plausible / good reason for her to do so. If a calf is unhealthy or underweight it seems that cows naturally seem to sense this and may instinctively ((un-)consciously) decide to not allow the calf to nurse or allow to suckle ... In the wild state, it would make sense for a cow to get her calf to quickly follow her and the herd and when it cannot due to birth defects or other reasons a calf may not be healthy, alive and kicking why invest any resources in day-to-day care ...?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top