Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2021

Swanson02 said:
Thank you very much for the info
I didn't realise this forum existed so have a few questions which I think have not been answered previously.



So by that logic, Melbourne with Mek Kapah, Dokkoon, Mali, Num-Oi, and Kulab are already beyond their cow carrying capacity? (Is this a big issue? Or is the capacity of 4 cows more of a guideline? Or is it more based on the number of stalls available in the cow's barn?) and surely Melbourne when importing their females back in the 2000s would have realised that they planned to have calves, which would have immediately put them over the limit. Likewise, with Auckland when they were attempting breeding, if Anjalee just had one calf they would have reached their capacity.



I would have thought this was because Gung himself was poorly socialised with no older mentors (could have old Heman potentially provided this?) arriving in Australia quite young surrounded by females could have left him a bit apathetic and competitive with others males. Or maybe TWPZ just don't want to risk an injury to a younger male in a scuffle with Gung
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Yes, Melbourne’s female elephant exhibit is over capacity based on the size of the paddock. It’s not a big deal since they’re moving to Werribee soon and being highly sociable animals, they’re thriving in each other’s company. The overcrowding of the exhibit was a contributing factor towards the decision to move them to Werribee - as a city zoo like Melbourne simply hasn’t got the space.

The trend of city zoos phasing out their elephants is certainly nothing new. London Zoo transferred their three elephants to their open range sister zoo 20 years ago, so Australasia is finally catching up!

There was debate for years over Auckland expanding their elephant exhibit. Unsuccessful attempts to import a third female (Nandi) and Anjalee’s lack of breeding success meant there was never sufficient grounds to warrant the expansion (there was already rate payer objections). Original plans were for a breeding herd of 10 elephants.

On the subject of Gung, he was meant to go to Auckland Zoo as Taronga already had a bull (Heman). After Auckland Zoo canned the import, he went to Taronga instead. The main reason they never shared quarters was that Taronga initially housed the Thai import of 1.4 elephants as a group as a designated bull facility wasn’t developed for Gung until 2008.
 
Swanson02 said:
Thank you very much for the info
I didn't realise this forum existed so have a few questions which I think have not been answered previously.



So by that logic, Melbourne with Mek Kapah, Dokkoon, Mali, Num-Oi, and Kulab are already beyond their cow carrying capacity? (Is this a big issue? Or is the capacity of 4 cows more of a guideline? Or is it more based on the number of stalls available in the cow's barn?) and surely Melbourne when importing their females back in the 2000s would have realised that they planned to have calves, which would have immediately put them over the limit. Likewise, with Auckland when they were attempting breeding, if Anjalee just had one calf they would have reached their capacity.



I would have thought this was because Gung himself was poorly socialised with no older mentors (could have old Heman potentially provided this?) arriving in Australia quite young surrounded by females could have left him a bit apathetic and competitive with others males. Or maybe TWPZ just don't want to risk an injury to a younger male in a scuffle with Gung
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Melbourne actually have three existing paddocks and so they can afford to hold the amount of individuals they have right now, which is seven. But with the birth of further calves it could lead them over capacity; which they will be when the 3 calves are born soon, but that dosen't matter as they'll be heading to Werribee shortly after.

Melbourne's barn is rather small and they 3 small stalls and one bigger, about double the size of the other ones. The capacity for the cow barn is already at max so i'm not sure what they'll do with the birth of further calves. Currently Man Jai still sleeps with the cows so maybe they'll move him to the bull barn with Luk Chai?

I'm not sure what Auckland planned to do with their elephants. If they wanted to create a large breeding herd, they would've needed much more space, something the zoo dosen't have. The only real option would've been to get rid of something like the rhinos to give them extra room.

Heman and Burma were moved to TWPZ initially as there was really no big reason to introduce them to the new, younger elephants, especially following Taronga's decision to take Gung instead. Introducing Burma to five much younger elephants would've been problematic, especially considering she's had trouble with other elephants in the past. And in Heman's case, there just wasn't the space to hold the two bulls.

Apparently Gung was very ignoring of other elephants from a young age; apparently Tang Mo used to attempt to initiate play with him but Gung wouldn't get involved. He was most closest to Thong Dee, the mother of his two sons, Luk Chai and Sabai.
 
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@Jambo Interesting stuff
RE:Auckland's Elephants will be moving to Aus' in very near future as @Zoofan15 found out in April, Burma (38) will be joining the younger female Sumatran herd at Australia Zoo and Anjalee (14) will be joining the herd at Western Plain.
 
steveroberts said:
@Jambo Interesting stuff
RE:Auckland's Elephants will be moving to Aus' in very near future as @Zoofan15 found out in April, Burma (38) will be joining the younger female Sumatran herd at Australia Zoo and Anjalee (14) will be joining the herd at Western Plain.
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Yes i'm well aware. It's exciting news for both Burma and Anjalee, but rather sad news for Auckland Zoo and more so the entirety of New Zealand which will be without elephants for the first time in more than a century.

Burma will now be with a large herd for the first time in ages which should be really enriching for her. Anjalee will also get the opportunity to breed for the first time which is exciting in itself.

Although the only real option for Anjalee was Taronga Western Plains, TWPZ is looking rather crowded in the future, with four future breeding cows and the size of their facilities. Adding the two females from Taronga, one of which is breeding too, would overcrowd the facility. So the only real option is either keeping them at Taronga, which I find highly unlikely; extend the current facilities, or send them to Werribee in the future. Maybe this is why they haven't moved to TWPZ yet, because the plan is to send them to Werribee when the complex is completed?
 
@Jambo Oh right sorry lol you already knew that,

Yeah with Taronga Sydney its tricky because the Elephant yards are hemmed in on all sides by exhibits like the Seals and the Rainforest animals so its very different from other situations like when Perth Zoo tripled their Elephant area in the early-mid 2000s by demolishing old exhibits no longer in use it's not the same with Taronga's situation. If Western Plain could double their space for their Eles' it would be wonderful. Werribee hopefully are planning their Elephant yards/paddocks to be bigger in capacity than just for Melbourne's seven Ele's and the 3 unborn babies because one day (I hope as far away as possible cos I'll be devastated that day) when Tricia passes away at PZ there will be a need for available space for Permai and Putra Mas also.
 
steveroberts said:
Yeah with Taronga Sydney its tricky because the Elephant yards are hemmed in on all sides by exhibits like the Seals and the Rainforest animals so its very different from other situations like when Perth Zoo tripled their Elephant area in the early-mid 2000s by demolishing old exhibits no longer in use it's not the same with Taronga's situation. If Western Plain could double their space for their Eles' it would be wonderful. Werribee hopefully are planning their Elephant yards/paddocks to be bigger in capacity than just for Melbourne's seven Ele's and the 3 unborn babies because one day (I hope as far away as possible cos I'll be devastated that day) when Tricia passes away at PZ there will be a need for available space for Permai and Putra Mas also.
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The Werribee exhibits will be huge. There’s sketches of the two planned exhibits (as well as size comparisons to other zoo’s exhibits) in this link: https://zoolex.org/media/uploads/2020/07/15/2018_werribee_elephant_report_summary.pdf
 
Wow that is really going to be something special and on a global zoos scale too, really impressive plan of Zoos Victoria. The size comparison to all the other zoos like Dubbo and Dallas,TX is amazing.
 
steveroberts said:
Wow that is really going to be something special and on a global zoos scale too, really impressive plan of Zoos Victoria. The size comparison to all the other zoos like Dubbo and Dallas,TX is amazing.
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Yes it'll be massive, one of the biggest elephant enclosures i'm aware of in a zoo worldwide. The enclosure will be more than 5 times bigger than the whole Dubbo complex, which is really impressive. Their facilities would definitely be able to hold a large breeding herd of 20+ elephants, alongside a small bachelor group.
 
This is seriously very impressive! SDZSP once housed 17 or so elephants at the same time in their habitat which looks so tiny compared to Werribee’s planned habitat. Imagine how many elephants could inhabit theirs! I’m so excited to see how this habitat turns out, can’t wait for 2024!
 
Animals R AMAZING! said:
This is seriously very impressive! SDZSP once housed 17 or so elephants at the same time in their habitat which looks so tiny compared to Werribee’s planned habitat. Imagine how many elephants could inhabit theirs! I’m so excited to see how this habitat turns out, can’t wait for 2024!
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Zoos talk about planning for the next 50-100 years, but this is the ultimate example of a zoo putting that into practice. It’s no exaggeration to say the herd will grow into this exhibit over several decades.

The bull exhibit will be restricted in numbers via social dynamics but there’s no reason a cohesive matriarchal herd couldn’t number in the 20’s one day.

The size comparison chart shows the Werribee exhibit as just under three times the size of the Dubbo exhibit and around four times the size of San Diego Safari Park exhibit:

https://zoolex.org/media/uploads/2020/07/15/2018_werribee_elephant_report_summary.pdf
 
Zoofan15 said:
Zoos talk about planning for the next 50-100 years, but this is the ultimate example of a zoo putting that into practice. It’s no exaggeration to say the herd will grow into this exhibit over several decades.
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Wow!, WORZ's proposed facility is really impressive. It will almost be hard to see the elephants when they are at the back of the exhibit! I also wonder how it compares to Cabarceno's enormous and Picturesque exhibit. This may sound a bit silly but I think green grass is a simple but great indicator of how accomodating both space and stress-wise an exhibit is. Like we see exhibits like Carbaceno, North Carolina, and Boras Zoo all with large green areas within their exhibits. It shows that the elephants aren't either trampling any grass into oblivion, due to a lack of space or tearing grass out as a sign of boredom. This new WORZ definitely will be a big, open, and hopefully green one.
It will be great for the elephant's fitness too, with keepers likely placing feed on the opposite sides of the exhibit every few hours.

Jambo said:
Heman and Burma were moved to TWPZ initially as there was really no big reason to introduce them to the new, younger elephants, especially following Taronga's decision to take Gung instead. Introducing Burma to five much younger elephants would've been problematic, especially considering she's had trouble with other elephants in the past. And in Heman's case, there just wasn't the space to hold the two bulls.

Apparently Gung was very ignoring of other elephants from a young age; apparently Tang Mo used to attempt to initiate play with him but Gung wouldn't get involved. He was most closest to Thong Dee, the mother of his two sons, Luk Chai and Sabai.
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Also, I've just additionally skim read through the old AUS/NZ elephant discussion thread, so I believe I have caught up a bit too on Australia's whole situation right now.

It is a shame Heman wasn't utilized as a founder like Bong Su and Gung used later down the track once he matured more. Obviously, Gung had a very different experience to his wild peers who normally have to wait until they are at least in their mid-30s before they can even get a look in with cows. On a side note, Heman reminds me of a mature Ongard with his large lone tusk.

Sydne07.jpg
 
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Swanson02 said:
Wow!, WORZ's proposed facility is really impressive. It will almost be hard to see the elephants when they are at the back of the exhibit! I also wonder how it compares to Cabarceno's enormous and Picturesque exhibit. This may sound a bit silly but I think green grass is a simple but great indicator of how accomodating both space and stress-wise an exhibit is. Like we see exhibits like Carbaceno, North Carolina, and Boras Zoo all with large green areas within their exhibits. It shows that the elephants aren't either trampling any grass into oblivion, due to a lack of space or tearing grass out as a sign of boredom. This new WORZ definitely will be a big, open, and hopefully green one.
It will be great for the elephant's fitness too, with keepers likely placing feed on the opposite sides of the exhibit every few hours.



Also, I've just additionally skim read through the old AUS/NZ elephant discussion thread, so I believe I have caught up a bit too on Australia's whole situation right now.

It is a shame Heman wasn't utilized as a founder like Bong Su and Gung used later down the track once he matured more. Obviously, Gung had a very different experience to his wild peers who normally have to wait until they are at least in their mid-30s before they can even get a look in with cows. On a side note, Heman reminds me of a mature Ongard with his large lone tusk.

Sydne07.jpg
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I’m thinking the Werribee exhibit will lend itself to fission-fusion dynamics within the herd due to the sheer size of it. In wild herds, elephants often split of into sub groups for an hour or two to forage for food - before reuniting with much fanfare. It’s exciting to think they could do the same at Werribee.

Heman was a magnificent bull. It’s such a shame they didn’t undertake AI with him before his death. This was performed on Porntip shortly after, who Gung was still too young to reach. The delay was due to them wanting the herd to settle in and build up a relationship with the keepers before the cows fell pregnant.
 
Swanson02 said:
Wow!, WORZ's proposed facility is really impressive. It will almost be hard to see the elephants when they are at the back of the exhibit! I also wonder how it compares to Cabarceno's enormous and Picturesque exhibit. This may sound a bit silly but I think green grass is a simple but great indicator of how accomodating both space and stress-wise an exhibit is. Like we see exhibits like Carbaceno, North Carolina, and Boras Zoo all with large green areas within their exhibits. It shows that the elephants aren't either trampling any grass into oblivion, due to a lack of space or tearing grass out as a sign of boredom. This new WORZ definitely will be a big, open, and hopefully green one.
It will be great for the elephant's fitness too, with keepers likely placing feed on the opposite sides of the exhibit every few hours.
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Due to the size of the exhibit it'll most likely remain mostly green, which is a great thing.

I was thinking the exact same thing re. being able to see them. The larger enclosures width will be about 250 metres! Hopefully the trails are designed uniquely to help with this. Large viewing platforms will definitely have to be on the cards.

Swanson02 said:
It is a shame Heman wasn't utilized as a founder like Bong Su and Gung used later down the track once he matured more. Obviously, Gung had a very different experience to his wild peers who normally have to wait until they are at least in their mid-30s before they can even get a look in with cows. On a side note, Heman reminds me of a mature Ongard with his large lone tusk.
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Even if everything went to plan and Heman became Taronga's breeding male, he still was a 50 year old male who had never bred before so theres no guarantees he would've impregnated them naturally. And, he actually ended up dying at Dubbo just over a month after the females arrived to Taronga. So either way, it wouldn't have worked in the long term.
 
Jambo said:
Even if everything went to plan and Heman became Taronga's breeding male, he still was a 50 year old male who had never bred before so theres no guarantees he would've impregnated them naturally. And, he actually ended up dying at Dubbo just over a month after the females arrived to Taronga. So either way, it wouldn't have worked in the long term.
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It's a damn shame he died, and he never should've been transferred. He lost condition very rapidly after he was transferred, and apparently never handled the stress of it ( both the move and dealing with new cows) very well.

In addition, even if he never did make for a natural breeder, he was, much like Bong Su, given a semen analysis, and it showed that he was a perfectly fertile bull still.
 
Hyak_II said:
It's a damn shame he died, and he never should've been transferred. He lost condition very rapidly after he was transferred, and apparently never handled the stress of it ( both the move and dealing with new cows) very well.

In addition, even if he never did make for a natural breeder, he was, much like Bong Su, given a semen analysis, and it showed that he was a perfectly fertile bull still.
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When Heman and Burma arrived to Dubbo, they only had three African Elephant cows. They didn’t have direct contact but were displayed in adjoining paddocks.
 
At the time of the move they would have thought Heman and Burma were getting a better deal of living with their Dubbo paddock, its unfortunate that he went downhill within a year and died poor guy. With hindsight (not helpful to Heman obviously but hopefully helpful in not making certain decisions in future) it would have been better to keep him at Taronga(Syd) in his original exhibit but it would have been complicated with Gung arriving and with the choice about Burma's future who did from what I understand settle into Dubbo life a lot better considering she only passed away not long ago. It was interesting to learn here how she had problems with other Elephants, had no idea because was use to seeing her alongside Ranee in the 1990s and Heman (still not completely sure how their Taronga 'temple' exhibit was divided up if at all); felt sorry for Burma and Heman because they lost favour with the zoo based on their age.
 
steveroberts said:
At the time of the move they would have thought Heman and Burma were getting a better deal of living with their Dubbo paddock, its unfortunate that he went downhill within a year and died poor guy. With hindsight (not helpful to Heman obviously but hopefully helpful in not making certain decisions in future) it would have been better to keep him at Taronga(Syd) in his original exhibit but it would have been complicated with Gung arriving and with the choice about Burma's future who did from what I understand settle into Dubbo life a lot better considering she only passed away not long ago. It was interesting to learn here how she had problems with other Elephants, had no idea because was use to seeing her alongside Ranee in the 1990s and Heman (still not completely sure how their Taronga 'temple' exhibit was divided up if at all); felt sorry for Burma and Heman because they lost favour with the zoo based on their age.
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Heman and Burma’s move was promoted as a retirement and to be fair, they did get an improved exhibit compared to the cramped exhibit they had at the Elephant Temple. The yard could be divided into two, which allowed separation of Heman and Burma if required - though in most photos I saw them together.

Aside from Burma’s aggression towards handlers (making her unsuitable for direct contact), somebody also made a comment on here about her status as a Herpes carrier being unknown, which could have brought great devastation to the zoo’s fledgling breeding programme.
 
Taronga Zoo Elephant Exhibit - Historical Overview

This document was released by Taronga Zoo in April 2007. It’s primarily a project application, but also offers a fascinating historical overview and photos throughout the decades of the exhibit:

https://majorprojects.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/prweb/PRRestService/mp/01/getContent?AttachRef=MP06_0270%2120190821T023047.655%20G

Click on the link to read the whole document.

Overview of application:

The Indian Elephant Temple and Yard were built in 1915, as part of the original infrastructure at the zoo designed by the NSW Government Architect to house Jessie, the female Indian elephant and Moore Park Zoo’s most famous exhibit at that time.

At that time, the Zoo’s emphasis on the keeping of elephants was for entertainment purposes, with elephant rides a popular highlight of a visit to Taronga (a feature which continued until 1978).

The Elephant Temple and Yard remained largely as built until 1986, when the zoo’s emphasis shifted towards the breeding and conservation of elephants. At this time modifications were made to the Temple and Yard, with a substantial tripling of the paddock area, requiring the remodelling of the original Yard and incorporation of adjoining open space to the west of the exhibit.

As part of the implementation of the Master plan 2000 a new Wild Asia exhibit was opened in late 2005, to the west of the original Indian Temple and Yard, and within the area of the original elephant walk. Wild Asia features state-of-the-art facilities for housing four female and one juvenile male Asian elephants, forming part of an Australasian breeding herd.

The proposed new bull holding facility is to be constructed within the confines of the old Elephant enclosure, as an integral part of the breeding program for Asian Elephants.

The facility is required to manage the new bull elephant “Gung” when he reaches maturity and will need to be separated from the four female elephants. The new facility will be designed as a non-contact facility that can hold 1 x adult male, 1 x juvenile male and 1 x visiting female elephant.

Five significant phases of development:

Of particular interest was the five significant phases of development:

Phase One (1913-1916): Initial Construction
Phase Two (1916-1940): Consolidation
Phase Three (1941-1967): The Hallstrom Era
Phase Four (1968-1986): Restructure
Phase Five (1987-): Planning for the New Millennium

They’re outlined in detail on Page 6 of the document.
 
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