Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Jambo]

Very true. Going forward, the breeding programme will focus on breeding at two sites - Werribee and Dubbo. Sabai will be redundant at both of them and an excellent candidate for export. He comes from a different line to Ongard, so would be a desirable for import into the USA.

It’ll be interesting to see as and when the Sydney Zoo bulls enter the breeding programme. Daughters of Mali will need to be paired with a bull from a third patriarchal line - either Putra Mas or the Sydney bulls.

I'd imagine if Werribee recieve Putra Mas, one of the Sydney bulls will be sent to Dubbo maybe in ten years or so (possibly in a swap with Sabai who won't be needed for breeding). The other will remain at Sydney as a 'backup' in case anything happens to the other bull.

 

[Zoofan15]

I'd imagine if Werribee recieve Putra Mas, one of the Sydney bulls will be sent to Dubbo maybe in ten years or so (possibly in a swap with Sabai who won't be needed for breeding). The other will remain at Sydney as a 'backup' in case anything happens to the other bull.

I would identify Sabai (followed by Man Jai) as the strongest candidates for export - probably to the USA. The only reason they might want to hold on to Sabai is as a mentor to the male calves born from the next cohort.

Luk Chai was ideal for this, as he was patient with the calves; versus Pathi Harn, who was more intense and was distrusted by the cows (who acted protectively of the calves in his presence).

Future Plan for Taronga Western Plains Zoo

The Dubbo site has the following:

- Barn One (built late 70’s)
- Barn Two (built early 80’s)
- Barn Three (built mid 00’s) - Suitable for bulls
- Five paddocks

A fourth barn and paddock area are planned in the near future, which will be purpose built for housing the cows and calves.

This would easily allow for them to maintain the four social groups they have:

1. Gung (breeding bull)
2. Pathi Harn (breeding bull)
3. Sabai (mentor bull)
4. Matriachal Herd

And in time, allow for the creation of a fifth group of bachelor bulls from the next cohort; with one of the three bulls listed above possibly being transferred or exported (Sabai) around that time.

The zoo like to maintain at least one or two paddocks free for recovery (the elephants are rotated so an not to overuse the terrain); with the elephants occupying different paddocks, as well as combining different groups for socialisation e.g. Pathi Harn and Sabai spending time together.
Aaaaa

 

[Jambo]

I would identify Sabai (followed by Man Jai) as the strongest candidates for export - probably to the USA. The only reason they might want to hold on to Sabai is as a mentor to the male calves born from the next cohort.

Luk Chai was ideal for this, as he was patient with the calves; versus Pathi Harn, who was more intense and was distrusted by the cows (who acted protectively of the calves in his presence).

Future Plan for Taronga Western Plains Zoo

The Dubbo site has the following:

- Barn One (built late 70’s)
- Barn Two (built early 80’s)
- Barn Three (built mid 00’s) - Suitable for bulls
- Five paddocks

A fourth barn and paddock area are planned in the near future, which will be purpose built for housing the cows and calves.

This would easily allow for them to maintain the four social groups they have:

1. Gung (breeding bull)
2. Pathi Harn (breeding bull)
3. Sabai (mentor bull)
4. Matriachal Herd

And in time, allow for the creation of a fifth group of bachelor bulls from the next cohort; with one of the three bulls listed above possibly being transferred or exported (Sabai) around that time.

The zoo like to maintain at least one or two paddocks free for recovery (the elephants are rotated so an not to overuse the terrain); with the elephants occupying different paddocks, as well as combining different groups for socialisation e.g. Pathi Harn and Sabai spending time together.
Aaaaa

Dubbo previously had three paddocks and two barns (one for the Asians, and one for Africans). Burma often lived in one, Gigi (and Arna) in the other, and the Cuddles in the third paddock.

In 2014, a third barn was added, alongside two additional paddocks. The barn initially housed Porntip, Thong Dee, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn; but following Cuddles's death in 2017, Thong Dee and Porntip were moved there I believe.

Currently, one barn holds Gung, the other Pathi Harn and Sabai, and then a third, holds the girls. At max, the barns together could hold up to 14 elephants in total.

Only three of the paddocks are actually 'on display'; the girls usually have one and then Pathi Harn and Sabai the other. There's a third which sometimes sits empty, as like you've said they use the paddocks as a rotational system as to not overuse the terrain.

 

[Zoofan15]

Dubbo previously had three paddocks and two barns (one for the Asians, and one for Africans). Burma often lived in one, Gigi (and Arna) in the other, and the Cuddles in the third paddock.

In 2014, a third barn was added, alongside two additional paddocks. The barn initially housed Porntip, Thong Dee, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn; but following Cuddles's death in 2017, Thong Dee and Porntip were moved there I believe.

Currently, one barn holds Gung, the other Pathi Harn and Sabai, and then a third, holds the girls. At max, the barns together could hold up to 14 elephants in total.

Only three of the paddocks are actually 'on display'; the girls usually have one and then Pathi Harn and Sabai the other. There's a third which sometimes sits empty, as like you've said they use the paddocks as a rotational system as to not overuse the terrain.

The first barn was built in 1977 for the 1.4 young African elephants; with the second barn built ahead of the arrival of the 1.1 African elephants in 1983. This was so they could house the mature bull, Congo, separately from the female herd. Initial attempts to breed consisted of walking the females past him each morning and observing which ones showed interest in him.

Pathi Harn and Sabai make for an active display, but can’t be kept together permanently due to a risk of injury (neither could Luk Chai and Pathi Harn), who had three contact sessions a week.

Gung can be aggressive towards people - especially during musth (throwing things etc), so is typically kept off display over more amiable display animals.

 

[Zoofan15]

First Known Mating in an Australian Zoo

More detail on attempts to breed from the African elephants at Taronga Western Plains Zoo can be found in this article (05/03/1986):

Elephants' sex lives largely a mystery - The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 - 1995) - 5 Mar 1986

Interestingly, a natural mating was noted to have taken place - which means Perth’s claim that the first natural mating of elephants in an Australian zoo took place at their zoo two decades later in 2005 was incorrect.

With multiple young females and a proven bull, there was clearly potential for success - though the region’s elephant population could be looking very different if there had have been.

Spoiler: Article

The sexes are kept in separate enclosures, but in the morning when the elephants are let out of their night quarters, the females are led past the male in an adjacent pen. He checks the females' scent trail and the keeper makes notes on their behaviour.

If a female is feeling particularly affectionate she might present her rump to the male and he might respond with a sniff of the appropriate parts of her anatomy.

The keepers have devised a scale on which to score the degree of enthusiasm with which the elephants carry out these activities, and by charting the results they hope to establish when the females
are most likely to conceive.

If the activity is particularly enthusiastic the male is let in with the females. This has happened on several occasions at the zoo, but only once has the mating act been observed because they are very
shy about when and where they do it.

 

[Zorro]

African Elephant Breeding at Dubbo

More detail on attempts to breed from the African elephants at Taronga Western Plains Zoo can be found in this article (05/03/1986):

Elephants' sex lives largely a mystery - The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 - 1995) - 5 Mar 1986

Interestingly, a natural mating was noted to have taken place - which means Perth’s claim that the first natural mating of elephants in an Australian zoo took place at their zoo in 2005 was incorrect.

With multiple young females and a proven bull, there was clearly potential for success - though the region’s elephant population could be looking very different if there had have been.

Spoiler: Article

The sexes are kept in separate enclosures, but in the morning when the elephants are let out of their night quarters, the females are led past the male in an adjacent pen. He checks the females' scent trail and the keeper makes notes on their behaviour.

If a female is feeling particularly affectionate she might present her rump to the male and he might respond with a sniff of the appropriate parts of her anatomy.

The keepers have devised a scale on which to score the degree of enthusiasm with which the elephants carry out these activities, and by charting the results they hope to establish when the females
are most likely to conceive.

If the activity is particularly enthusiastic the male is let in with the females. This has happened on several occasions at the zoo, but only once has the mating act been observed because they are very
shy about when and where they do it.

Its surprising really that no calf was ever produced with the African elephants in Dubbo since they were young when they arrived from Longleat. also later adding the two from the US. Congo was claimed to be the largest African bull in captivity at that time I believe he had lived in a Safari park in LA. The second barn and exhibit yard was added I saw both David and Congo kept together in one yard with the cows in the other yard. I was told in the mid 90s that WPZ had contacted the Toronto zoo for advice in regards to breeding since Toronto had some success produced a number of calfs

 

[Zoofan15]

Its surprising really that no calf was ever produced with the African elephants in Dubbo since they were young when they arrived from Longleat. also later adding the two from the US. Congo was claimed to be the largest African bull in captivity at that time I believe he had lived in a Safari park in LA. The second barn and exhibit yard was added I saw both David and Congo kept together in one yard with the cows in the other yard. I was told in the mid 90s that WPZ had contacted the Toronto zoo for advice in regards to breeding since Toronto had some success produced a number of calfs

Congo was wild born in 1958 and after being captured in 1969, was sent to the Lion Country Safari. He sired three male calves there to two different females. One had a stillborn calf in 1980, followed by a second calf in 1982 that died at two years; while the other had a calf in 1980 that died in 1994.

It’s interesting that Congo and David were able to live together up until David’s death in 1987. He suffered from ill health from a young age and likely rarely challenged Congo, thus reducing any conflict.

Toto sadly died of a heart attack at the age of 16 in 1984 (a year after she arrived). The remaining cows were aged 12-17 in 1986, so were in their reproductive prime. At least one was clearly cooperative with the bull’s mating efforts.

 

[Swanson02]

Pathi Harn and Sabai make for an active display, but can’t be kept together permanently due to a risk of injury (neither could Luk Chai and Pathi Harn), who had three contact sessions a week.

I find it interesting how Porntip's more assertive and dominant traits have been inherited by Pathi Harn and likewise, with Thong Dee's more laid-back personality, being carried over to her sons, it really shows that they are social animals with learned behaviors.

A few questions:
Does Gung currently have any contact with the cows? (I assume he is now permanently separated from Sabai and Pathi Harn)

What's the current position (in Australia and internationally) on an adult bull's socialization? I understand cows certainly need a high amount of companionship throughout their lives but for example, could a zoo just house a lone bull of 20+ years and it not be detrimental to his wellbeing?

 

[Zoofan15]

I find it interesting how Porntip's more assertive and dominant traits have been inherited by Pathi Harn and likewise, with Thong Dee's more laid-back personality being carried over to her sons, it really shows that they are social animals with learned behaviors.

I had long wondered if Porntip’s status as matriarch would influence the hierarchy between the young bulls; as well as size - Porntip is larger than Thong Dee, who’s noted to be a small female. Initially these factors had no impact as Luk Chai was eight months older and significantly bigger. Pathi Harn became the alpha of the pair a few years ago.

A few questions:
Does Gung currently have any contact with the cows? (I assume he is now permanently separated from Sabai and Pathi Harn)

What's the current position (in Australia and internationally) on an adult bull's socialization? I understand cows certainly need a high amount of companionship throughout their lives but for example, could a zoo just house a lone bull of 20+ years and it not be detrimental to his wellbeing?

Gung doesn’t routinely have visits with the cows and is housed seperate from Pathi Harn and Sabai. During musth cycles, Gung would become aggressive and both Luk Chai and Pathi Harn would act fearful and submissive. They’d be suspicious of opening doors and refuse to enter locations for fear of his presence.

Due to injuries from sparring, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn’s contact was limited towards the end (three contact sessions a week); and similarly, Pathi Harn and Sabai aren’t housed together full time. Pathi Harn isn’t as gentle as Luk Chai.

Although bulls can be housed alone without detriment to their well-being, they’re clearly stimulated by even limited contact with their female counterparts e.g. auditory or visual contact. Putra Mas for example has limited contact with the cows at Perth. The natural social order of elephants sees bulls socialise with cows at least intermittently, so zoos prefer to replicate this over housing a bull in total isolation (now other elephants on site).

 

[Jambo]

I had longer wondered if Porntip’s status as matriarch would influence the hierarchy between the young bulls; as well as size - Porntip is larger than Thong Dee, who’s noted to be a small female. Initially these factors had no impact as Luk Chai was eight months older and significantly bigger. Pathi Harn became the alpha of the pair a few years ago.


Gung doesn’t routinely have visits with the cows and is housed seperate from Pathi Harn and Sabai. During musth cycles, Gung would become aggressive and both Luk Chai and Pathi Harn would act fearful and submissive. They’d be suspicious of opening doors and refuse to enter locations for fear of his presence.

Due to injuries, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn’s contact was limited towards the end; and similarly, Pathi Harn and Sabai aren’t housed together full time. Pathi Harn isn’t as gentle as Sabai.

To my knowledge, bulls can be housed alone without detriment to their well-being; though they’re clearly stimulated by even limited contact with their female counterparts e.g. auditory or visual contact. Putra Mas for example has limited contact with the cows at Perth.

Luk Chai has grown to become quite a large bull despite the fact he was born the smallest calf in Australia! I would’ve thought Pathi Harn would’ve eclipsed him though. Pathi Harn has too incredibly tall parents compared to Luk Chai, who’s parents are both rather short. Luk Chai’s not much bigger than Mek Kapah, the tallest female elephant at Melbourne.

Gung is almost never with the cows or even the younger bulls. Dubbo keeps him by himself most of the time which is an interesting choice. Taronga on the other hand, used to bring the females and calves frequently to visit him, at times on a weekly basis. Gung is a very temperamental bull though, and the decision to move him to Dubbo was more for keeper safety. As you’ve said he can be very aggressive, especially during musth.

Sabai normally spends a day or two a week with Pathi Harn. The rest is with the females. He used to sleep overnight with Luk Chai in the bull barn. Not sure whether he sleeps by himself now, but I’m assuming he’s back to sleeping with the females.

Bong Su too was also kept seperate quite often from the cows. He was rarely ever in with them, and he didn’t seem to mind. He would still have access to them though through the fence though. Later on, Ongard was kept often with him for companionship. They were introduced around when Ongard was only three and a half years old.

 

[Zoofan15]

Luk Chai has grown to become quite a large bull despite the fact he was born the smallest calf in Australia! I would’ve thought Pathi Harn would’ve eclipsed him though. Pathi Harn has too incredibly tall parents compared to Luk Chai, who’s parents are both rather short. Luk Chai’s not much bigger than Mek Kapah, the tallest female elephant at Melbourne.

Gung is almost never with the cows or even the younger bulls. Dubbo keeps him by himself most of the time which is an interesting choice. Taronga on the other hand, used to bring the females and calves frequently to visit him, at times on a weekly basis. Gung is a very temperamental bull though, and the decision to move him to Dubbo was more for keeper safety. As you’ve said he can be very aggressive, especially during musth.

Sabai normally spends a day or two a week with Pathi Harn. The rest is with the females. He used to sleep overnight with Luk Chai in the bull barn. Not sure whether he sleeps by himself now, but I’m assuming he’s back to sleeping with the females.

Bong Su too was also kept seperate quite often from the cows. He was rarely ever in with them, and he didn’t seem to mind. He would still have access to them though through the fence though. Later on, Ongard was kept often with him for companionship. They were introduced around when Ongard was only three and a half years old.

Here’s the birth weights of all calves born in Australian zoos:

Spoiler: Birth Weights of Asian Elephant Calves in Australian Zoos

Birth Weights of Elephant Calves in Australian Zoos

Gung’s Calves:

1.0 Luk Chai born 2009 (Thong Dee): 96kg
0.1 Tukta born 2010 (Pak Boon): 120kg
1.0 Sabai born 2016 (Thong Dee): 101kg
1.0 Jai Dee born 2017 (Pak Boon): 130kg

Bong Su’s Calves:

0.1 Mali born 2010 (Dokoon): 111kg
1.0 Pathi Harn born 2010 (Porntip): 116kg
1.0 Ongard born 2010 (Kulab): 142 kg
1.0 Man Jai born 2013 (Dokoon): 131kg
1.0 Sanook born 2013 (Num Oi): 131kg

Putra Mas’ Calves:

0.1 Willow born 2016 (Num Oi): 103kg
0.1 Kanlaya born 2018 (Porntip): 120kg

An interesting note around the time of their births was that Pathi Harn was stockier than Luk Chai, though not as tall. Pathi Harn has tusks, which is another reason his contact with cows and calves has been more restricted than Luk Chai’s ever was. He has been allowed brief contact sessions in order to practice his mating skills, which he’s successfully proven (though not for the purpose of breeding).

I’m assuming Sabai’s contact with the matriarchal herd is limited given he’d already began to spend time away from them prior to Luk Chai’s departure (they wouldn’t regress to housing him with them overnight again); and given Anjalee’s arrival. Cows can act protective of their offspring in the presence of an unfamiliar female and Thong Dee isn’t as assured as Porntip.

Even though Sabai is six years old this year and would surely love having Anjalee as a play mate, having him out the picture until Anjalee is accepted by the cows would surely make the introductions smoother. As reported in my update however, she’s struck up a friendship with Kanlaya.

 

[Amberangel112]

I'm a bit late to the conversation, but Perth Zoo did house 3 cows for a few years before Teduh had to be put to sleep due to health issues. The current enclosure was made to house at least 3 cows (and maybe a calf)

 

[Zoofan15]

I'm a bit late to the conversation, but Perth Zoo did house 3 cows for a few years before Teduh had to be put to sleep due to health issues. The current enclosure was made to house at least 3 cows (and maybe a calf)

Teduh arrived with Permai and Putra Mas in 1992, when the trio were 2-3 years old. Teduh was euthanised in May 2007.

The 2005 masterplan outlined this progress on the expansion:

Completed the first stage of the redevelopment of the Asian Elephant exhibit. Stage one includes a new enclosure for the three female elephants with a large pool and elevated visitor viewing areas.

And outlined the next phase (completed 2009):

Begin stage two of the Asian Elephant exhibit redevelopment including a new barn for the bull elephant, an additional display and exercise area for the females, and an extension of the female barn. When completed, the redevelopment will increase the size of the elephant exhibit threefold.

Teduh was accommodated in the expansion of the elephant exhibit, which began in the early 2000's; though Teduh was known to have a limited lifespan and the plans were as much about giving the other elephants as much space as possible and the provision for a female calf remaining in the matriachal herd into adulthood.

 

[Jambo]

Teduh arrived with Permai and Putra Mas in 1992, when the trio were 2-3 years old. Teduh was euthanised in May 2007.

The 2005 masterplan outlined this progress on the expansion:

Completed the first stage of the redevelopment of the Asian Elephant exhibit. Stage one includes a new enclosure for the three female elephants with a large pool and elevated visitor viewing areas.

And outlined the next phase (completed 2009):

Begin stage two of the Asian Elephant exhibit redevelopment including a new barn for the bull elephant, an additional display and exercise area for the females, and an extension of the female barn. When completed, the redevelopment will increase the size of the elephant exhibit threefold.

Teduh was accommodated in the expansion of the elephant exhibit, which began in the early 2000's; though Teduh was known to have a limited lifespan and the plans were as much about giving the other elephants as much space as possible and the provision for a female calf remaining in the matriachal herd into adulthood.

Is there any reason why both Teduh and Permai never conceived? Both had the opportunity as Putra Mas has since proved to be a fertile bull.

 

[Zoofan15]

Is there any reason why both Teduh and Permai never conceived? Both had the opportunity as Putra Mas has since proved to be a fertile bull.

The keepers had to work on training Permai to stand for the bull, so its possible she and Teduh had refused to do so until that point. There were never attempts to breed from Teduh due to her health, as noted when Putra Mas and Permai first mated in 2005.

Familiarity may also have played a part as they'd been together since they were barely out of infancy. Theoretically, breeding could have occurred from the mid-90's, but instead didn't occur until a decade later when Putra Mas was housed separately from the cows and reintroduced when Permai was cycling.

 

[Jambo]

The keepers had to work on training Permai to stand for the bull, so its possible she and Teduh had refused to do so until that point. There were never attempts to breed from Teduh due to her health, as noted when Putra Mas and Permai first mated in 2005.

Familiarity may also have played a part as they'd been together since they were barely out of infancy. Theoretically, breeding could have occurred from the mid-90's, but instead didn't occur until a decade later when Putra Mas was housed separately from the cows and reintroduced when Permai was cycling.

I would've thought that the fact that they had grown up together would've benefited future mating success. Although there have been cases, among chimps I believe that specifically would not mate with those individuals they had grown up with.

Permai seems to have had a similar situation as Tang Mo has at Taronga. Was artificial insemination attempted? If Perth was successful with breeding Putra Mas and Permai breeding, they have very well been in a different situation now. Spatial issues would've been an issue, but they could've definitely worked around it due to only breeding from one cow.

 

[Zoofan15]

I would've thought that the fact that they had grown up together would've benefited future mating success. Although there have been cases, among chimps I believe that specifically would not mate with those individuals they had grown up with.

Permai seems to have had a similar situation as Tang Mo has at Taronga. Was artificial insemination attempted? If Perth was successful with breeding Putra Mas and Permai breeding, they have very well been in a different situation now. Spatial issues would've been an issue, but they could've definitely worked around it due to only breeding from one cow.

It can depend a lot on the individuals. Pathi Harn for example began mounting Tukta while they were juveniles at Taronga Zoo; while Gung was a half-way case, having been introduced to Thong Dee and the others aged six. As we know, he went on to mate Thong Dee and Pak Boon successfully.

AI was initially attempted three times on Permai and there were plans to continue with it at that last update in 2009.

Perth's website claim they haven't got the space to build larger facilities, but given what a drawcard for their zoo they would have become if a calf was produced, I'm sure they'd be looking at options. In the extreme, it may have even strengthened the case for sourcing an open range site/receive funding.

 

[Swanson02]

AI was initially attempted three times on Permai and there were plans to continue with it at that last update in 2009.

A few quick questions again -

Is there any chance AI could be attempted with Putra Mas again on cows interstate (either in Vic or NSW) before Perth phases out? (Which could be up to 10 years away depending on Tricia)

Also, why was the decision never made to breed Gung with Porntip? I know initially, she was too tall so they decided to go AI with Bong Su, but why was she selected more recently? Was it to ensure her female calves could mate with Gung? Or is she just unreceptive to him?

Did Anjalee ever get checked for a potentially dangerous strain of EEHV? (I understand all elephants carry a particular strain) just wondering if she could present a problem to Kanlaya who's still firmly in the 'danger' zone.

 

[Jambo]

A few quick questions again -

Is there any chance AI could be attempted with Putra Mas again on cows interstate (either in Vic or NSW) before Perth phases out? (Which could be up to 10 years away depending on Tricia)

Also, why was the decision never made to breed Gung with Porntip? I know initially, she was too tall so they decided to go AI with Bong Su, but why was she selected more recently? Was it to ensure her female calves could mate with Gung? Or is she just unreceptive to him?

Did Anjalee ever get checked for a potentially dangerous strain of EEHV? (I understand all elephants carry a particular strain) just wondering if she could present a problem to Kanlaya who's still firmly in the 'danger' zone.

Definitely. I'd imagine though, Werribee may look to wait to naturally breed from him once he arrives to help with their succession plan. Dubbo has used him for AI in the past, and to help with genetics, he very well may be used from again, especially considering Gung's increasing representation through Luk Chai.

Porntip was recently AI'ed with sperm from Putra Mas in mid 2016. At the time, Gung was still at Taronga. I'd imagine Taronga would've thought it better to receive sperm from Putra Mas (unrepresented) rather than Gung, who was likely going to join the herd at Dubbo anyways.

All elephants have a strain of EEHV. And to my knowledge, the strain can become active due to many different reasons. Anjalee almost definitely has some sort of strain of EEHV, and i'm sure they would've made sure she didn't pose a major health risk to both Kanlaya and Sabai's health.

 

[Zorro]

I have high hopes for the Werribee zoos future in the new 50 acre complex I believe they can go from strength to strength there, I do have some concerns about the Taronga/WPZ herd I believe the gap between breeding cows could be counter productive also having a split herd.