Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Jambo]

I have high hopes for the Werribee zoos future in the new 50 acre complex I believe they can go from strength to strength there, I do have some concerns about the Taronga/WPZ herd I believe the gap between breeding cows could be counter productive also having a split herd.

Werribee seem to have a great future. They have one of the best elephant complexes planned alongside an already somewhat successful herd, which has succession placed nicely. I can see Werribee becoming one of the best and most well known Asian elephant facilities worldwide. They definitely have the potential.

I don't see Taronga's herd doing well, especially with a possible herd descending from a single cow. It's likely Taronga will eventually make the choice to send their females to Dubbo where they can be reunited with their previous herd members. This will take Dubbo up to four breeding cows, although i'd imagine large artificial gaps will still be used due to spatial reasons.

Dubbo's cows are also spread all over the place age wise. One of Dubbo's cows is now in her early 30's, the other, mid 20's. There's also one in her late teens, and another who's still a juvenile. This makes it much harder to map succession ect. Of course the sex of the calves will also have a say, as females are more favoured.

 

[Zoofan15]

I have high hopes for the Werribee zoos future in the new 50 acre complex I believe they can go from strength to strength there, I do have some concerns about the Taronga/WPZ herd I believe the gap between breeding cows could be counter productive also having a split herd.

The gaps between births at Taronga’s herds aren’t ideal and have seen them struggle to build up succession within their herd. There’s only been six calves born; only two have been females; and only one has survived.

Currently their population is looking a little top heavy with five adult cows (including two that are 30) and only one juvenile female. The new facility will help address this with more opportunities for regular breeding that will long term contribute to the creation of matrilineal lines and a succession.

 

[Zorro]

Werribee seem to have a great future. They have one of the best elephant complexes planned alongside an already somewhat successful herd, which has succession placed nicely. I can see Werribee becoming one of the best and most well known Asian elephant facilities worldwide. They definitely have the potential.

I don't see Taronga's herd doing well, especially with a possible herd descending from a single cow. It's likely Taronga will eventually make the choice to send their females to Dubbo where they can be reunited with their previous herd members. This will take Dubbo up to four breeding cows, although i'd imagine large artificial gaps will still be used due to spatial reasons.

Dubbo's cows are also spread all over the place age wise. One of Dubbo's cows is now in her early 30's, the other, mid 20's. There's also one in her late teens, and another who's still a juvenile. This makes it much harder to map succession ect. Of course the sex of the calves will also have a say, as females are more favoured.

I believe one of the key factors for Werribee zoos future is engaging a number of expert elephant managers world wide that run successful breeding herds

 

[steveroberts]

Am sure that back in Dec 1992 when Permai, Putra Mas and Teduh arrived there were hopes that when they reached maturity that Permai and Teduh would hopefully of had calves sired by Putra Mas but this never eventuated (and sadly too Teduh's compassionate euthanasia in 2007 due to her musco-skeletal afflictions) having only been able to enjoy the larger expanded exhibit for a very short amount of time. It's good that Putra Mas has managed to be a donor though over east. My family in Perth were sad to hear when I mentioned that Permai and Putra Mas are intended to leave Perth someday, but are also impressed at how Tricia has an impressive living legacy, they remember her in her awful solo exhibit in the early '80s, fortunately I only ever saw her in the better living accommodation (Putra Mas's solo home for last 17+/- years but he's lived there nearly 29 & half years now) albeit Tricia was all by herself the first time remember seeing/meeting her.

Personally think that someday it is the absolute best thing obviously for Permai and Putra Mas to join other Eles' in eastern Australia as Perth has no plans to bring new female Elephants in to join Permai and Tricia. The potential open-range zoo for Western Australia has been one of the longest ongoing ideas floated in the public domain of possibilities and if was to offer my 5c on the matter think it again has been scrapped off the 'table' for about 6 years now (remember seeing something in 2016 about the idea being quashed yet again due to state budget issues brought up by the state coalition government); seems like Perth Zoo's trajectory plan is to downsize it's species collection some more and attempt to have the closest thing to an open-range zoo (albeit a miniscule fraction of an average open-range zoo's size) within its 19 hectare grounds from the look of the masterplan with revolving exhibits and future expanded African Savannah over where the Eles' currently live (am really impressed to see Auckland Zoo already have excitingly completed similar exhibits already open with their Orangutan towers and soon to be open Sumatran Tiger overhead walking tunnels, I believe this is what Perth Zoo plans to be like too, and like Auckland Zoo without their Elephants anymore...though both being smaller city zoos I cannot begrudge them that as adequate space and optimal social herd numbers are an indisputable must in my mind and beliefs too.)

 

[Zoofan15]

Is there any chance AI could be attempted with Putra Mas again on cows interstate (either in Vic or NSW) before Perth phases out? (Which could be up to 10 years away depending on Tricia)

Also, why was the decision never made to breed Gung with Porntip? I know initially, she was too tall so they decided to go AI with Bong Su, but why was she selected more recently? Was it to ensure her female calves could mate with Gung? Or is she just unreceptive to him

I’d say it’s unlikely that Putra Mas will be used in the short term given Werribee Open Range Zoo are focussed on breeding from Luk Chai and that Taronga Western Plains Zoo have two lines to choose from - Gung and Bong Su (via Pathi Harn). Natural mating is always preferable and the opportunity to use Putra Mas for this will be available once Tricia passes and he’s transferred to another zoo (probably Werribee).

Gung wasn’t bred with Porntip because Taronga wanted to create different lines within their herd. Long term, they could have paired Pathi Harn with Tukta; while Sabai could be paired with Kanlaya. Had Porntip had given birth to a female calf in 2010, they’d probably be looking at breeding her with Gung now (which they can also do down the line with Kanlaya).

 

[Jambo]

I believe one of the key factors for Werribee zoos future is engaging a number of expert elephant managers world wide that run successful breeding herds

They're definitely the bright light and the hope for future successful breeding of Asian Elephants within the region. I believe they've studied a lot of other zoos who've had success in breeding the species, such as Dublin.

 

[Jambo]

Gung wasn’t bred with Porntip because Taronga wanted to create different lines within their herd. Long term, they could have paired Pathi Harn with Tukta; while Sabai could be paired with Kanlaya. Had Porntip had given birth to a female calf in 2010, they’d probably be looking at breeding her with Gung now (which they can also do down the line with Kanlaya).

I believe the plan was initially, to breed Pathi Harn and Tukta down the line. I've heard amongst some of my friends that volunteer at Taronga, that Gung was sent to Dubbo in hope of Pathi Harn being sent back to Taronga in the future, to breed with both Pak Boon and Tukta, which would've allowed Taronga to have a bull at each site.

 

[Zoofan15]

Am sure that back in Dec 1992 when Permai, Putra Mas and Teduh arrived there were hopes that when they reached maturity that Permai and Teduh would hopefully of had calves sired by Putra Mas but this never eventuated (and sadly too Teduh's compassionate euthanasia in 2007 due to her musco-skeletal afflictions) having only been able to enjoy the larger expanded exhibit for a very short amount of time. It's good that Putra Mas has managed to be a donor though over east. My family in Perth were sad to hear when I mentioned that Permai and Putra Mas are intended to leave Perth someday, but are also impressed at how Tricia has an impressive living legacy, they remember her in her awful solo exhibit in the early '80s, fortunately I only ever saw her in the better living accommodation (Putra Mas's solo home for last 17+/- years but he's lived there nearly 29 & half years now) albeit Tricia was all by herself the first time remember seeing/meeting her.

Personally think that someday it is the absolute best thing obviously for Permai and Putra Mas to join other Eles' in eastern Australia as Perth has no plans to bring new female Elephants in to join Permai and Tricia. The potential open-range zoo for Western Australia has been one of the longest ongoing ideas floated in the public domain of possibilities and if was to offer my 5c on the matter think it again has been scrapped off the 'table' for about 6 years now (remember seeing something in 2016 about the idea being quashed yet again due to state budget issues brought up by the state coalition government); seems like Perth Zoo's trajectory plan is to downsize it's species collection some more and attempt to have the closest thing to an open-range zoo (albeit a miniscule fraction of an average open-range zoo's size) within its 19 hectare grounds from the look of the masterplan with revolving exhibits and future expanded African Savannah over where the Eles' currently live (am really impressed to see Auckland Zoo already have excitingly completed similar exhibits already open with their Orangutan towers and soon to be open Sumatran Tiger overhead walking tunnels, I believe this is what Perth Zoo plans to be like too, and like Auckland Zoo without their Elephants anymore...though both being smaller city zoos I cannot begrudge them that as adequate space and optimal social herd numbers are an indisputable must in my mind and beliefs too.)

It’s a great shame to see the city zoos move towards phasing out elephants, but an inevitable progression nonetheless. Perth is no exception and will soon bid farewell to animals that have been at the zoo longer than most visitors can remember. Similarly at Auckland, next year will mark 100 years of keeping elephants at Auckland - with Jamuna arriving in June 1923 and the zoo never being without elephants from that date forth.

Putra Mas may be in demand due to being a poorly represented founder. Werribee will have the most need for him versus Dubbo, which have two lines each with several compatible females (Man Jai at Werribee just had Num Oi). Permai will be harder to place. Ultimately I can see her being paired with Burma. This may take the form of retirement at Taronga; or perhaps even Sydney Zoo. It’s impossible to say at this stage and something the zoos involved don’t even know yet.

 

[Zoofan15]

I believe the plan was initially, to breed Pathi Harn and Tukta down the line. I've heard amongst some of my friends that volunteer at Taronga, that Gung was sent to Dubbo in hope of Pathi Harn being sent back to Taronga in the future, to breed with both Pak Boon and Tukta, which would've allowed Taronga to have a bull at each site.

That was the original plan. They would have made a highly compatible pair as Pathi Harn was already showing a lot of interest in Tukta, mounting her etc. when they were at Taronga together as juveniles. Tukta began cycling at the age of four years (unusually early), so the zoo took responsible steps to ensure she didn’t conceive at such a young age.

Given Tang Mo’s inability to conceive, it would have been good to have the mother and daughter dyad (Pak Boon and Tukta) both breeding alongside each other.

 

[Jambo]

Putra Mas may be in demand due to being a poorly represented founder. Werribee will have the most need for him versus Dubbo, which have two lines each with several compatible females (Man Jai at Werribee just had Num Oi). Permai will be harder to place. Ultimately I can see her being paired with Burma. This may take the form of retirement at Taronga; or perhaps even Sydney Zoo. It’s impossible to say at this stage and something the zoos involved don’t even know yet.

I don't think there's anywhere else Putra Mas could go, besides Werribee. Dubbo will be looking for a bull that's unrelated to their next generation (including Kanlaya), and that's obviously not Putra Mas. Maybe Dubbo might receive one of the Sydney bulls instead later on.

I can see Permai maybe going with Putra Mas to Werribee. But of course if the option of pairing her with Burma, at possibly Sydney, that would work as a better option.

 

[Zorro]

They're definitely the bright light and the hope for future successful breeding of Asian Elephants within the region. I believe they've studied a lot of other zoos who've had success in breeding the species, such as Dublin.

Dublin do indeed have a magnificent herd which is extremely well managed I believe they are sending four cows to a US zoo in the near future

 

[Zoofan15]

Dublin do indeed have a magnificent herd which is extremely well managed I believe they are sending four cows to a US zoo in the near future

Its not hard to image that decades from now, Werribee could be in this position to create a split off herd. They’re aiming for 20-25 elephants in the matriarchal herd, but will want succession. If there’s a run of female births, then there could be the opportunity to export a branch of Dokoon’s family tree for example down the line. Having two daughters in the herd would be more than sufficient.

 

[Zorro]

I don't think there's anywhere else Putra Mas could go, besides Werribee. Dubbo will be looking for a bull that's unrelated to their next generation (including Kanlaya), and that's obviously not Putra Mas. Maybe Dubbo might receive one of the Sydney bulls instead later on.

I can see Permai maybe going with Putra Mas to Werribee. But of course if the option of pairing her with Burma, at possibly Sydney, that would work as a better option.

I could see the two bulls at the Sydney zoo stepping in the breeding program some where along the line

 

[Zoofan15]

I could see the two bulls at the Sydney zoo stepping in the breeding program some where along the line

They’ll likely sire the grandchildren of Mali (2010). If she has a daughter via Gung, that’s two founders utilised. It’s commonsense to use Putra Mas to sire offspring to any female calves Mali produces to utilise his genes while there’s still time; which will then have used up all founder lines bar the Sydney bulls.

It’s also a possibility they could be trained for AI for Pak Boon given they’re around half an hour from Taronga Zoo - though I’m not ruling out Pak Boon and Tang Mo merging with the Dubbo herd.

 

[Zorro]

It will depend on who’s calling the shots there in the future I get concerned with non zoo people being put on zoo boards and some managers with way out there ideas

 

[Zoofan15]

It will depend on who’s calling the shots there in the future I get concerned with non zoo people being put on zoo boards and some managers with way out there ideas

The good thing about Werribee is that while the zoo board will indirectly govern aspects like the herd size via finances (food budget etc.), management of the herd will largely be left down to staff. They’ve stated they will activate this through a succession plan that will be reviewed every 5-10 years.

The plan will be based around herd dynamics first and foremost, followed by genetic diversity. The herd will ultimately descend from just two matrilineal lines (Dokoon and Num Oi) and they will be keen to balance out the herd, which is currently titled in Dokoon’s favour, by hoping for a female calf from Num Oi from the next cohort.

 

[Jambo]

Update on Anjalee:

Aust Zoo backflip strands elephant in NZ

As reported in this article, Anjalee is settling in well at Taronga Western Plains Zoo.

Introductions have begun, with Anjalee striking up a friendship with their juvenile female, Kanlaya.

Following her successful integration into the female herd, they’ll look at breeding Anjalee with one of the bulls. My guess is Pathi Harn given Gung’s continuing representation through his son at Werribee.

Dubbo not taking Burma:

According to the same article, Dubbo will not be taking Burma; nor will Australia Zoo be reconsidered if their situation changes.

It’s not unreasonable to assume Taronga has been ruled out (as they will likely merge cows with the Dubbo herd); and therefore Sydney Zoo is the most likely option within the region for taking Burma.

Sydney Zoo could potentially receive both Burma and Permai as their respective zoos look to phase out elephants.

From a recent instagram photo, it appears Anjalee has now been introduced to both Porntip, and Thong Dee. From the photo it appears she's taller than both of them!

 

[Zoofan15]

From a recent instagram photo, it appears Anjalee has now been introduced to both Porntip, and Thong Dee. From the photo it appears she's taller than both Porntip and Thong Dee!

That's good news. The Sri Lankan subspecies is generally larger than the Indian subspecies, so I'm not surprised. Porntip is by no means a short female though, so that's interesting to hear.

It's been cool to see her overtake Burma at Auckland, who was initially larger due to their ages; yet strange as Kashin was always large than Burma (both Indian subspecies).

Anjalee and Kanlaya are loving each other's company and Anjalee will hopefully build on whatever experience she gained at the orphanage in maternal care to dedicate to her own calf in the not so distant future.

 

[Jambo]

That's good news. The Sri Lankan subspecies is generally larger than the Indian subspecies, so I'm not surprised. Porntip is by no means a short female though, so that's interesting to hear.

It's been cool to see her overtake Burma at Auckland, who was initially larger due to their ages; yet strange as Kashin was always large than Burma (both Indian subspecies).

Anjalee and Kanlaya are loving each other's company and Anjalee will hopefully build on whatever experience she gained at the orphanage in maternal care to dedicate to her own calf in the not so distant future.

I too thought Porntip was quite a tall female, but it appears Anjalee is larger. She was always shorter than Burma so Burma must be quite a large female! Tang Mo is apparently very tall and lanky too, and Pak Boon is very round and always was around the same height as Porntip.

I would've thought Anjalee would've gotten along well with Thong Dee first, but come to think of it i've heard before that Thong Dee's quite a shy and reserved female and would often get spooked during walks around Taronga by birds ect. It's good to see her getting along well with Kanlaya though. Kanlaya would be ecstatic to have a playful, female companion now.

 

[Zoofan15]

I too thought Porntip was quite a tall female, but it appears Anjalee is larger. She was always shorter than Burma so Burma must be quite a large female! Tang Mo is apparently very tall and lanky too, and Pak Boon is very round and always was around the same height as Porntip.

I would've thought Anjalee would've gotten along well with Thong Dee first, but come to think of it i've heard before that Thong Dee's quite a shy and reserved female and would often get spooked during walks around Taronga by birds ect. It's good to see her getting along well with Kanlaya though. Kanlaya would be ecstatic to have a playful, female companion now.

Anjalee overtook Burma around a year ago. She was larger on my recent visit, but similar around mid 2020. Funny enough, I'd always considered Burma a small elephant due to her being smaller than Kashin, so Kashin must have been exceptionally tall!

When the Thai elephants arrived, they noted Tang Mo was exceptionally tall - almost as tall as Porntip and Pak Boon. Imagine a calf from Bong Su and Tang Mo!

Thong Dee is the least social of the Taronga females, but the most dependent on their support in rearing her calves versus Ponrtip, who took on the majority of her offspring care. This would have been partly circumstantial with Thong Dee's calves being the sole calf in their respective herds initially and the other cows having nothing better to do than care for them.