Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

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Zorro said:
I seem to remember that Werribee use to run Asian water buffaloes in its African savanna years ago as stand in cape buffaloes :D
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That doesn’t surprise me. It’s disappointing when zoos don’t make an effort to be geographically accurate with their exhibits.

An Indian Plains exhibit would be such a unique exhibit within the region and more than achievable with the species we have here.

Within Australia there’s already:

Asian water buffalo
Indian antelope
Sambar
Chital
Hog deer

If you wanted to diversify to Asia in general there’s Persian fallow deer etc. Plus the options that come with the Bovid IRA now complete.
 
Swanson02 said:
I hope the elephants in captivity debate will die off once most of our elephants are located in large open-range settings. We are heading to a future where only the two Sydney zoos will hold elephants in smaller exhibits. Monarto as mentioned by myself and many others before is the only viable new future holder of this species in the region, thus them joining would be a massive boost.
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A lot of the complaints come from city zoos being unable to house large multigenerational herds. It’s no longer seen as acceptable to house a pair of females and they can’t accomodate larger groupings by modern standards. The beauty of holding bull elephants is they can be exhibited alone and therefore appear to have five times the exhibit space a medium sized matriarchal herd would have. I see holding bulls as the future of Taronga Zoo.

2024 will be an exciting year for the region:

- Taronga’s new cow and calf facility will be completed (or close to being completed), allowing them to receive Pak Boon and Tang Mo.

- Werribee’s complex will be completed, allowing them to receive Putra Mas (and possibly Burma and Permai).

- Sabai and Man Jai will be surplus to their respective zoos and taking up valuable space. They could be transferred to Taronga Zoo, who will then hold two bachelor bulls.
 
Zoofan15 said:
A lot of the complaints come from city zoos being unable to house large multigenerational herds. It’s no longer seen as acceptable to house a pair of females and they can’t accomodate larger groupings by modern standards. The beauty of holding bull elephants is they can be exhibited alone and therefore appear to have five times the exhibit space a medium sized matriarchal herd would have. I see holding bulls as the future of Taronga Zoo.

2024 will be an exciting year for the region:

- Taronga’s new cow and calf facility will be completed (or close to being completed), allowing them to receive Pak Boon and Tang Mo.

- Werribee’s complex will be completed, allowing them to receive Putra Mas (and possibly Burma and Permai).

- Sabai and Man Jai will be surplus to their respective zoos and taking up valuable space. They could be transferred to Taronga Zoo, who will then hold two bachelor bulls.
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Will the new Taronga facility involve an extension of paddocks? With such a possible large herd (of possibly five breeding females, alongside Tang Mo), the thing I’ve been concerned about is space, especially for future breeding once the herd grows. Unlike Werribee who will have the space, Dubbo will be restricted, and this was most likely behind the reasoning of them accepting Anjalee but not Burma. I’m wondering if Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Werribee is a better option, as it leaves Dubbo with more space for their future. Werribee also do need a bolster of adults, and could accomodate and would easily welcome a third founder in Pak Boon.

Regarding Man Jai, I’m under the impression Werribee plan to retain him in their bachelor group with Luk Chai. Maybe it’s a possibility Sabai will be sent to join them there. I doubt Taronga would go back into being a bachelor facility, especially following the 2012 incident. That was the reason the herd was split off to Dubbo in the first place.
 
Jambo said:
Will the new Taronga facility involve an extension of paddocks? With such a possible large herd (of possibly five breeding females, alongside Tang Mo), the thing I’ve been concerned about is space, especially for future breeding once the herd grows. Unlike Werribee who will have the space, Dubbo will be restricted, and this was most likely behind the reasoning of them accepting Anjalee but not Burma. I’m wondering if Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Werribee is a better option, as it leaves Dubbo with more space for their future. Werribee also do need a bolster of adults, and could accomodate and would easily welcome a third founder in Pak Boon.

Regarding Man Jai, I’m under the impression Werribee plan to retain him in their bachelor group with Luk Chai. Maybe it’s a possibility Sabai will be sent to join them there. I doubt Taronga would go back into being a bachelor facility, especially following the 2012 incident. That was the reason the herd was split off to Dubbo in the first place.
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I must admit that I don't know that much about how husbandry practices impact whether Taronga would be in a position to hold bulls in the future. From my understanding, all elephants (bulls and cows) are held in protective contact at both Taronga and TWPZ, which stemmed from the 2012 incident.

From my perspective, if Taronga wish to continue holding elephants, and the region needs another holder, holding bachelor bulls in protective contact (in the Wild Asia/Rainforest Trail exhibit, or the 'bull' exhibit near the temple) at Taronga wouldn't be any more dangerous to keepers than holding them at Dubbo; however, I'd welcome the input of others who know more than me.
 
Abbey said:
I must admit that I don't know that much about how husbandry practices impact whether Taronga would be in a position to hold bulls in the future. From my understanding, all elephants (bulls and cows) are held in protective contact at both Taronga and TWPZ, which stemmed from the 2012 incident.

From my perspective, if Taronga wish to continue holding elephants, and the region needs another holder, holding bachelor bulls in protective contact (in the Wild Asia/Rainforest Trail exhibit, or the 'bull' exhibit near the temple) at Taronga wouldn't be any more dangerous to keepers than holding them at Dubbo; however, I'd welcome the input of others who know more than me.
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Originally, Gung, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn were being sent to Dubbo where they would still be managed under protective contact but would at least get the space the young bulls needed (or at least that’s what the original idea was). All elephants have been under protective contact since 2012, including Melbourne too.

To my understanding, Taronga (at the time) thought their young bulls needed space. Especially when they’re going through musth. Pathi Harn had his first cycles of musth unusually early, and he became incredibly aggressive, despite just being two years old. For comparison, Man Jai had his first cycle at age five.

I do believe Taronga could hold a bachelor bull facility, but I’m not sure if they will considering the whole splitting of the herd was to prevent having juvenile bulls at Taronga.
 
Jambo said:
Will the new Taronga facility involve an extension of paddocks? With such a possible large herd (of possibly five breeding females, alongside Tang Mo), the thing I’ve been concerned about is space, especially for future breeding once the herd grows. Unlike Werribee who will have the space, Dubbo will be restricted, and this was most likely behind the reasoning of them accepting Anjalee but not Burma. I’m wondering if Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Werribee is a better option, as it leaves Dubbo with more space for their future. Werribee also do need a bolster of adults, and could accomodate and would easily welcome a third founder in Pak Boon.

Regarding Man Jai, I’m under the impression Werribee plan to retain him in their bachelor group with Luk Chai. Maybe it’s a possibility Sabai will be sent to join them there. I doubt Taronga would go back into being a bachelor facility, especially following the 2012 incident. That was the reason the herd was split off to Dubbo in the first place.
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Remember they were looking at building a 500 acre African exhibit which finally ended up only 50 acre’s so they should have some room to add on a couple of paddocks
 
Jambo said:
Will the new Taronga facility involve an extension of paddocks?.
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Taronga Western Plains Zoo Expansion:

The primary purpose of the development at Taronga is to provide a large indoor space for the cows and calves over winter. This was identified as one of the preventative measures against EEHV. The barn will allow the entire matriarchal herd to be kept inside for extended periods during this time.

It will also include an additional yard, which will allow the grass in the current yards time to recover from the elephant’s wear and tear.
 
Zorro said:
Remember they were looking at building a 500 acre African exhibit which finally ended up only 50 acre’s so they should have some room to add on a couple of paddocks
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It makes sense given the infrastructure here is mainly in the fencing and some shade structures. Elephants appreciate space first and foremost and this will be important with two adolescent bulls coming through; and more calves in the near future.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Taronga could easily manage bull elephants at their city site. They successfully managed Gung in the elephant temple exhibit and only minor modifications would be needed to manage bulls in rainforest trail exhibit. One issue with bulls in city zoos is their aggression during musth cycles. Gung for example throws rocks and other projectiles at staff, which could become a health and safety issue. All that’s required is placement of fences/paths to negate this issue as is done at Perth with Putra Mas.

It’s a great shame the protected contact rules came in following the 2012 incident. When Num Oi’s newborn calf ran into problems following her birth, it would have been of great assistance to the staff to have been able to go in with mother and baby to assist with suckling etc.
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Taronga could definitely manage bulls, it’s just whether they will.

I’m not sure Gung’s former habitat would be used again. It’s become quite run down since his departure in 2019, and is now accompanied by dromedary camels who are more so a long term replacement in my view rather than a short term one. The Rainforest Trail would be best, as they also can seperate the enclosure into two if needed. The main modifications would probably surround the barn, and making it safe for the keepers, as it was originally built for cows.

I believe with Num zoo’s calf, Willow, they were able to assist Num Oi with the calf early on, but albeit with Num Oi in a seperate pen. When Num Oi delivered Sanook in early 2013, Melbourne hadn’t implemented protected contact yet, but had done so by Man Jai’s birth at the end of the year.
 
Abbey said:
I must admit that I don't know that much about how husbandry practices impact whether Taronga would be in a position to hold bulls in the future. From my understanding, all elephants (bulls and cows) are held in protective contact at both Taronga and TWPZ, which stemmed from the 2012 incident.

From my perspective, if Taronga wish to continue holding elephants, and the region needs another holder, holding bachelor bulls in protective contact (in the Wild Asia/Rainforest Trail exhibit, or the 'bull' exhibit near the temple) at Taronga wouldn't be any more dangerous to keepers than holding them at Dubbo; however, I'd welcome the input of others who know more than me.
Click to expand...

Taronga could easily manage bull elephants at their city site. They successfully managed Gung in the elephant temple exhibit and only minor modifications would be needed to manage bulls in rainforest trail exhibit. One issue with bulls in city zoos is their aggression during musth cycles. Gung for example throws rocks and other projectiles at staff, which could become a health and safety issue. All that’s required is placement of fences/paths to negate this issue as is done at Perth with Putra Mas.

It’s a great shame the protected contact rules came in following the 2012 incident. When Num Oi’s newborn calf ran into problems following her birth, it would have been of great assistance to the staff to have been able to go in with mother and baby to assist with suckling etc.
 
An idea re. Pak Boon:

It doesn’t seem likely Pak Boon will be transferred out of Taronga anytime soon given Dubbo’s expansion is still two years away and Werribee are looking at a similar timeframe for their complex.

If she conceived this month, they’d be looking at a seven year age gap since her last calf and she’s now 30 years old. Getting her pregnant should be a priority.

While AI remains an option, I wonder if they’d consider loaning her to Sydney Zoo (a 45 minute journey by truck) to breed with their two bulls. They’re now eight years old and at the age where they could achieve a successful mating (as Gung did at their age with Pak Boon).

Taronga will be aware of Pak Boon’s ovulation cycle and a loan period of a week would be sufficient to cover all bases. It’d be significantly cheaper than undertaking AI, more likely to succeed and could see Pak Boon transfer to Dubbo with a calf unrelated to all members of their herd.

Such a method has been undertaken with success at zoos in the UK and in the US.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Taronga Western Plains Zoo Expansion:
The primary purpose of the development at Taronga is to provide a large indoor space for the cows and calves over winter. This was identified as one of the preventative measures against EEHV. The barn will allow the entire matriarchal herd to be kept inside for extended periods during this time. It will also include an additional yard, which will allow the grass in the current yards time to recover from the elephant’s wear and tear.
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I've mentioned it before but I can see TWPZ expanding into the exhibit next to the elephants in this upcoming expansion. This paddock is currently inhabited on/off by zebra and Onager. Onagers are being phased out (unfortunately), and zebras are found in other locations all over the zoo, so can be moved. It's unfortunate as it would be taking away an exhibit but it's the only place I could see the elephants expanding, they are blocked to the north by the road, east by the savanna, and south by the zoofari lodge.

The image below is a little draw-up of where I see TWPZ placing the new yard (replacing the current zebra exhibit) and the new calf and cow barn with an indoor area. All the other current yards are outlined in red. I could also see them expanding the current display yard, across into the new yard (area highlighted green), creating one giant exhibit for their multigenerational herd. The remaining three yards could then be used like they are now, rotated between Gung, a small bachelor group, or another breeding bull (Pathi Harn), and resting/regeneration.

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Zoofan15 said:
An idea re. Pak Boon:

It doesn’t seem likely Pak Boon will be transferred out of Taronga anytime soon given Dubbo’s expansion is still two years away and Werribee are looking at a similar timeframe for their complex.

If she conceived this month, they’d be looking at a seven year age gap since her last calf and she’s now 30 years old. Getting her pregnant should be a priority.

While AI remains an option, I wonder if they’d consider loaning her to Sydney Zoo (a 45 minute journey by truck) to breed with their two bulls. They’re now eight years old and at the age where they could achieve a successful mating (as Gung did at their age with Pak Boon).

Taronga will be aware of Pak Boon’s ovulation cycle and a loan period of a week would be sufficient to cover all bases. It’d be significantly cheaper than undertaking AI, more likely to succeed and could see Pak Boon transfer to Dubbo with a calf unrelated to all members of their herd.

Such a method has been undertaken with success at zoos in the UK and in the US.
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I like this idea a lot. How did they do it in the US and UK? Was the cow stressed at all? I also worry that Taronga might cop flak about leaving Tang Mo by herself (if only for a week). It sounds like Taronga has been receiving a lot of angry feedback on Tang Mo and Pak Boon's state at Taronga recently. I could understand them not even publicizing this little holiday, for fear of Animal rights uproar.
 
Swanson02 said:
I've mentioned it before but I can see TWPZ expanding into the exhibit next to the elephants in this upcoming expansion. This paddock is currently inhabited on/off by zebra and Onager. Onagers are being phased out (unfortunately), and zebras are found in other locations all over the zoo, so can be moved. It's unfortunate as it would be taking away an exhibit but it's the only place I could see the elephants expanding, they are blocked to the north by the road, east by the savanna, and south by the zoofari lodge.

The image below is a little draw-up of where I see TWPZ placing the new yard (replacing the current zebra exhibit) and the new calf and cow barn with an indoor area. All the other current yards are outlined in red. I could also see them expanding the current display yard, across into the new yard (area highlighted green), creating one giant exhibit for their multigenerational herd. The remaining three yards could then be used like they are now, rotated between Gung, a small bachelor group, or another breeding bull (Pathi Harn), and resting/regeneration.

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Thats a fantastic idea! It would also allow for the construction of a ring a round a rosie style gate system (with swing gates) that could be used in introductions with that paddock and the one on the right that connects to it. This is also in place in the largest paddock (and the one below) it and is invaluable when introducing new elephants such as Anjalee or when doing mating introductions - as it allows the cow to flee the bull if desired.

As you mention, the other exhibits could be used to manage adolescent bulls in a fission-fushion style of management with both the matriarchal herd and the senior bulls as they transition to a life of independence.
 
Swanson02 said:
I like this idea a lot. How did they do it in the US and UK? Was the cow stressed at all? I also worry that Taronga might cop flak about leaving Tang Mo by herself (if only for a week). It sounds like Taronga has been receiving a lot of angry feedback on Tang Mo and Pak Boon's state at Taronga recently, I could understand them not even publicizing this little holiday.
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Thank you! I’ve seen it done in two ways. Shanthi at the Smithsonian National Zoo was loaned out to breed with the bull at his facility; while Chester Zoo similarly received cows that resided there for a year and left pregnant. The other way is to loan the bull. In the case of Shanthi, she was stressed at travelling alone to another facility.

Taronga would need to weigh up whether it would be practical to send Tang Mo as moral support, but I’d try Pak Boon alone first.

Good point re. Animal rights groups. It’s not beyond the realms to imagine them barricading roads etc. Melbourne similarly didn’t disclose details of Ongard’s export until he was settled in at Zoo Miami.
 
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