Did any of Radzas sons look anything like their sire in size or other repects?
Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022
- Thread starter Amberangel112
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Just to be clear re. your first point, I wasn’t saying the youngest cows would avoid mating with the mature bull; I was saying the zoo would be keen to avoid allowing such a mating to take place. There’s been incidences in zoos and in the wild where females have suffered long term injuries by being mounted by a bull that was too large. Bong Su was a fully mature bull, close to five tonnes and the youngest cows were five and six years old upon arrival.
The zoo also would have been keen to avoid such young cows falling pregnant full stop. There was a huge backlash over Thong Dee falling pregnant at the age of seven, which was unnecessarily overreactive given the ages cows in Europe have safely delivered calves. Her age was hurriedly re-estimated as being three years older.
This is not my opinion, Melbourne keepers are the one's who believed this to be the reason behind Mek Kapah not conceiving. After all, Bong Su was a perfectly fertile bull and he was mating with Mek Kapah. There's really no other explanation. Bong Su was actually quite aggressive and dominant as a youngster. He got along well with Mek Kapah, so it also rules out your point about him being a sensitive male with a dominant female.
Though to point out, Mek Kapah did have a history of benign uterine tumours, which may have contributed to her inability to reproduce.
Swanson02
Well-Known Member
I agree with the arthritis theory, it probably got quite sore for him towards the end
The unfortunate legacy of years of standing on a concrete floor that affected so many of our region’s elephants of that era. With the improvements in husbandry, I have no doubt several of the elephants we have in our care throughout the region will reach their 60’s and Tricia’s longevity record will one day be surpassed.
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Swanson02
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Interesting that might explain Man Jai and especially Pathi Harn's more boisterous temperaments. Hopefully, that also indicates that they may calm down to be like their father later in life.
I definitely agree, it would be great to see a 70-year-old Dokoon at Werribee surrounded by generations of offspring, maybe even up to her 3x great-grandchild. I also think the softer soil and grass at open-range zoos are good for elephant's joints, compared to the ground constantly being trampled in inner city zoos like Melbourne has given it a concrete-like quality.
The region would look very different, I could have seen all three of the major open-range zoos specializing in Africans rather than Asians. It may sound strange but I am kind of thankful TWPZ was unsuccessful. Our region is not large enough to support two separate elephant breeding programs (ahem Australia Zoo). So I could have foreseen us most likely ending up in a situation where we were half-assing and failing at two breeding programs rather than just focussing on and succeeding at one.
Dokoon is fortunate to have had a surviving female calf relatively early in life at 17 years. This hopefully means she has decades ahead of her to support Mali and her descendants. Mali will be 13 years old upon the birth of her first calf and similarly could provide the same support to a female calf.
For that reason, it would be great if Num Oi delivers a female calf in this birth, so her matrilineal line isn’t delayed any further. She’s 22 years old, so still young - but fate has already prevented her from having the six year old daughter that would otherwise be with her today.
It’s hard to image an African elephant breeding programme having taken off. It appears Congo was only mating with one cow, so potentially they may have welcomed a much celebrated birth (the first in the region), only for breeding to then stagnate. Numbers would have dwindled and they may well have been phased out in the long term. Monarto has only ever been the other serious contender for this species and even they’ve never detailed any concrete plans.
Yes, he did go through a lot of pain, and was already taking medication for it even before their move to the new enclosure (in 2003). Poor guy. He was a real icon to see up close, a giant I believe he stood at almost 3 and a half metres tall!
That may very well be what happened. Bong Su really only had that temperament until he was around 15. After then he slowly mellowed out, so hopefully the same happens with Pathi Harn. Because of his temperament in his earlier years they didn't introduce him to the calves until they were at least a year old. I do think though it may have been his arthritis that mellowed him out. He barely moved whatsoever in his final years.
Australia Zoo refund Auckland Zoo $400K:
Australia Zoo repays Auckland Zoo $400k over Burma the elephant's failed move
This comment suggests Auckland Zoo are looking at long term export options e.g. the USA rather than a transfer to Perth as some of us had been speculating:
Australia Zoo has refunded Auckland Zoo more than $400,000 intended for “habitat modifications” for Burma.
Australia Zoo repays Auckland Zoo $400k over Burma the elephant's failed move
This comment suggests Auckland Zoo are looking at long term export options e.g. the USA rather than a transfer to Perth as some of us had been speculating:
Australia Zoo has refunded Auckland Zoo more than $400,000 intended for “habitat modifications” for Burma.
Or possibly just some modifications to add to her enclosure for the next couple of years until Werribee is ready in 2024/2025.
Quite possibly, though the key point here is she clearly isn't going to Perth and the zoo are anticipating a long term stay.
I hope for her and Permai's sake that Werribee can take them as this would tick all the boxes and be the least distance to travel versus the US.
That would be the best outcome for all. I wish there was a way to fast track this project when also considering that 3 calfs are due
The original plan was for the cows and calves to move across in late 2023, followed by the bulls; however it's since changed so that all will move across (within a few weeks of each other) in 2024.
Sticking to an early 2024 transfer date means the calves will be a year old and a better age for transporting than newborns, but possibly they could fast track the bull accommodation at Werribee to get Luk Chai and Man Jai transferred over and free up space for the matriachal herd at Melbourne in the interim.
I believe the plan was, and still is, to send the bulls prior to the cows. Mid 2024 is the planned date for the bulls (Luk Chai and Man Jai) to be sent. With the bulls gone, it'll free up space for the cows and calves to have access to two of the three enclosures, which is theoretically double the space they would've had beforehand.
The cows will follow a month or two later; once the calves are more than eighteen months old. This is mainly as they expect the cow barn construction to take a little longer than the much smaller, and simpler bull barn.
Interesting - I read this as the money being refunded as funds which Australia Zoo would now not be spending, given that they would no longer be receiving Burma, therefore the 'habitat modifications' being to Australia Zoo's exhibit, not Auckland's. Although, I do see how you're all probably more correct, as the last-minute nature of the move being canned would mean that you'd think that anything of the sort would have been already completed.
I'm assuming it's also to help Auckland pay for another move in the future (possibly even a move all the way to the US which will be very expensive).
Yes, Auckland Zoo would have spent a significant amount of money on export permits, export testing etc. which was done on the assumption Burma would be leaving.
The habitat upgrades are as much about ensuring Burma is accommodated for as an only elephant in terms of enrichment given she is now (unexpectantly) living on her own.
I doubt it...more so Australia feel bad for leaving Auckland in a hole that's hard to get out of anytime soon.
A US export could take years, and that's not necessarily ideal for Burma. The best option seems to be Werribee, but even their facilities won't be complete until 2024. I guess time will tell what the best option is for Burma. But in the meantime, she's staying put in Auckland.
I wouldn't be surprised. It was stated in the article there'd been zero communication between the zoos since, which would be consistent with a legal case.
Australia Zoo essentially went back on a deal which had severe financial reprocussions for Auckland Zoo, who would be eager to recoup those costs.
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