Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2024

[Jambo]

could envision Werribee in the (more distant) future could also upgrade their lower Savannah fencing and allow bachelor elephants to roam there, or have even a fenced path across the top of the zoo from their new home all the way to the Lower-Savannah, if such new fencing were installed.

I don't know how well they'd mix with the animals down there like the Giraffe and Rhino. They're not an African species too so would really ruin the theming of the area.

The current elephant complex should have plenty of space to accommodate bachelor males long term. In saying that, it would be nice to view the elephants on safari, somehow or some way.

 

[Tiger91]

I agree that Bachelor groupings are definitely needed, but in the wild bachelor elephants will still time to time make contact and socialise with larger herds, and keeping them in separate facilities to a breeding/ matriachal herd would limit/prevent that from occurring.

I guess from an ethical and welfare perspective, considering the immense intelligence of the species (which rivals our own) I feel they should be allowed greater independence in their lives. With three Open Range Zoos having/building capacity to house larger groups in large enclosures, I do feel that it is near time that other facilities are forced to expand their enclosures to Open range size, or surrender their animals.

While facilites that hold both a matriarchal herd and bulls are preferred. Holding bulls in bachelor facilities is fine. Even when bulls interact with matriarchal herds in the wild it is usually only for breeding or when bulls are in their teens and weaning away from herd life style.

Bachelor facilities are useful, and while yes they don't have the facilities to accomodate mixing of the female herd. That is a part where captivity deviates away from the wild. But it doesn't detract from there ability to ethically house bulls. In many zoo settings bulls are not always mixed with cows as they don't always tolerate them. A behaviour also mirrored in the wild. And zoos are not looking to attract negative attention from injuries from natural interactions that may occur. Where people are not fully cognisant of why it has happened. Even in the wild bulls are driven away from matriarchal herds when the cows have had enough of them. And they loosely follow them incase females cycle. That doesn't mean that bulls actively need interaction with matriarchal herds for ethical treatment.

 

[Zoofan15]

While facilites that hold both a matriarchal herd and bulls are preferred. Holding bulls in bachelor facilities is fine. Even when bulls interact with matriarchal herds in the wild it is usually only for breeding or when bulls are in their teens and weaning away from herd life style.

Bachelor facilities are useful, and while yes they don't have the facilities to accomodate mixing of the female herd. That is a part where captivity deviates away from the wild. But it doesn't detract from there ability to ethically house bulls. In many zoo settings bulls are not always mixed with cows as they don't always tolerate them. A behaviour also mirrored in the wild. And zoos are not looking to attract negative attention from injuries from natural interactions that may occur. Where people are not fully cognisant of why it has happened. Even in the wild bulls are driven away from matriarchal herds when the cows have had enough of them. And they loosely follow them incase females cycle. That doesn't mean that bulls actively need interaction with matriarchal herds for ethical treatment.

I think what’s important to consider here is whether bachelor facilities are needed. If Werribee and Monarto were planning complexes the size of Dubbo’s, it’s clear we’d soon be at capacity; but with a 21ha and 14ha complex in the works, it’s completely within the means of these zoos to accomodate breeding bulls, bachelor bulls etc.

Yes, having multiple bulls is advantageous genetically; but all Europe are in a position to offer us is bulls from well represented lines and we already have two of those sitting at Sydney Zoo that we’ll be unlikely to have a use for during the next two decades at least.

 

[Zoofan15]

I don't know how well they'd mix with the animals down there like the Giraffe and Rhino. They're not an African species too so would really ruin the theming of the area.

The current elephant complex should have plenty of space to accommodate bachelor males long term. In saying that, it would be nice to view the elephants on safari, somehow or some way.

Apparently elephants and giraffes are mixed in zoos in Dallas and Sweden; but it seems a risky combination imo with a high of both species getting spooked. In any case, Asian elephants would detract from the African Safari theming.

I’d much rather the emphasis be placed on integrating Indian species into the elephant complex including Indian antelope (already planned), which could cohabit with the matriarchal herd; and potentially Nilgai, which are more robust and would be a possibility for integrating with the bulls (outside of their musth cycles).

 

[The Sleepy Hippo]

While facilites that hold both a matriarchal herd and bulls are preferred. Holding bulls in bachelor facilities is fine. Even when bulls interact with matriarchal herds in the wild it is usually only for breeding or when bulls are in their teens and weaning away from herd life style.

Bachelor facilities are useful, and while yes they don't have the facilities to accomodate mixing of the female herd. That is a part where captivity deviates away from the wild. But it doesn't detract from there ability to ethically house bulls. In many zoo settings bulls are not always mixed with cows as they don't always tolerate them. A behaviour also mirrored in the wild. And zoos are not looking to attract negative attention from injuries from natural interactions that may occur. Where people are not fully cognisant of why it has happened. Even in the wild bulls are driven away from matriarchal herds when the cows have had enough of them. And they loosely follow them incase females cycle. That doesn't mean that bulls actively need interaction with matriarchal herds for ethical treatment.

I would disagree. As they are a sentient animal I think that if it is possible for us to give them more natural and wild interactions then it is imperative to do so.

Elephants should be exclusively in open range zoos with protected interaction from keepers. I think it inappropriate to have them separated on different sites.

Apparently elephants and giraffes are mixed in zoos in Dallas and Sweden; but it seems a risky combination imo with a high of both species getting spooked. In any case, Asian elephants would detract from the African Safari theming.

I’d much rather the emphasis be placed on integrating Indian species into the elephant complex including Indian antelope (already planned); and potentially Nilgai.

I agree about theming, and would prefer (as stated in the last) for the zoo to expand West to Metropolitan Farm Rd to create an Upper savannah and have an African Elephant breeding program. A breeding herd of giraffe could also be included there. But I don't see this happening.

My suggestion of Asian elephant being included in the lower savannah is suggested as a distant future if (and when) the new enclosure approaches capacity.


I do think that our treatment of elephants needs to evolve from one of an enclosure, to one of a reserve, with the most minimal of human contact possible.

 

[Zoofan15]

I do think that our treatment of elephants needs to evolve from one of an enclosure, to one of a reserve, with the most minimal of human contact possible.

I agree. Werribee’s complex will be more than five massive paddocks. It’ll give the herd a lifestyle where they can manage their day and make decisions. It’s a huge progression from the direction they (and other females across the region) used to receive under free contact.

What I’m most looking forward to seeing is the range of social behaviour not previously seen in city zoos. The way young bulls transition out of the herd for example, which occurs at a much younger age in captivity than the wild and how this is managed by the elephants in a fission-fushion context.

 

[ZCChip]

Maybe there is not funding for African elephants? It does cost a lot of money and time to export elephants especially with the difficulty of exports nowadays.
Maybe they felt a mixed species would provide some enrichment albeit Asian vs African species of animals.
The last African in Australia has died quite a few years ago. A former circus elephant. I had unfortunately forgotten her name and location, it’s been that long!

 

[ZCChip]

I looked and per the elefanten website, the last living African was cuddles in 2017, she was a part of a group with 3 cows and they did have a bull but never bred. I know there was an African traveling with a circus then retired at a zoo. Who was she and when did she pass? I know this is an Asian thread but since there are no living Africans in Australia no need for a thread for that. Does anyone remember?

 

[Zoofan15]

Maybe there is not funding for African elephants? It does cost a lot of money and time to export elephants especially with the difficulty of exports nowadays.
Maybe they felt a mixed species would provide some enrichment albeit Asian vs African species of animals.
The last African in Australia has died quite a few years ago. A former circus elephant. I had unfortunately forgotten her name and location, it’s been that long!

The importation of African elephants would definitely be considered an unnecessary use of funding when Melbourne can provide Werribee with a herd of Asian elephants (simultaneously facilitating their own phase out of his species). With the region focussed on Asian elephants, it makes sense to dedicate any placements to this species.

To be clear, the integration of Asian elephants with African species was only proposed as an idea for managing an overflow of their complex; which considering it can house up to 40 elephants, will be decades away.

I looked and per the elefanten website, the last living African was cuddles in 2017, she was a part of a group with 3 cows and they did have a bull but never bred. I know there was an African traveling with a circus then retired at a zoo. Who was she and when did she pass? I know this is an Asian thread but since there are no living Africans in Australia no need for a thread for that. Does anyone remember?

Cuddles was indeed the region’s last African elephant, dying in 2017. A number of Asian elephants were retired to Australian zoos (Dubbo, Sydney and Australia Zoo) throughout the 2000’s, but I suspect you’re thinking of Jumbo/Mila, who was retired to Franklin Zoo in New Zealand. She killed her keeper in 2012 and was exported to San Diego Zoo in 2013.

Dubbo imported 1.3 African elephants from Longleat in 1977; followed by 1.1 from the US in 1982. Auckland Zoo also imported a juvenile female from Los Angeles in 1983, who died three months later.

 

[ZCChip]

Cuddles was indeed the region’s last African elephant, dying in 2017. A number of Asian elephants were retired to Australian zoos (Dubbo, Sydney and Australia Zoo) throughout the 2000’s, but I suspect you’re thinking of Jumbo/Mila, who was retired to Franklin Zoo in New Zealand. She killed her keeper in 2012 and was exported to San Diego Zoo in 2013.

thanks that seems to be her. And yes about the killing and I remember about the stardust circus elephant killing a keeper as well at a different zoo. (Asian elephant).

 

[Zoofan15]

thanks that seems to be her. And yes about the killing and I remember about the stardust circus elephant killing a keeper as well at a different zoo. (Asian elephant).

Yes, that was Arna. She born 1960 approx and was imported into Australia in 1963, where she spent time at Perry Bro’s (1963-1993) and Stardust (1993-2008). After crushing a trainer in 2007, she and another cow named Gigi (1958-2019) went to Dubbo the following year.

 

[Jambo]

Maybe there is not funding for African elephants? It does cost a lot of money and time to export elephants especially with the difficulty of exports nowadays.
Maybe they felt a mixed species would provide some enrichment albeit Asian vs African species of animals.
The last African in Australia has died quite a few years ago. A former circus elephant. I had unfortunately forgotten her name and location, it’s been that long!

The problem is the region's focus is currently on Asians so there's really no reason for any zoos to shift their focus to Africans when regional cooperation is absolutely essential to our region's success with breeding programs when you take into account how many zoos we have.

With that in mind, a lot of smaller regional facilities aren't able to fund such a venture with the main government zoos all focusing on Asians at the moment and other the other smaller ones all too small for elephants in general.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes going forward. Maybe decades down the line we will see Africans return. I do think they would suit our open range zoos very well - although space would have to be weighed up between them and Asians. I could see regional facilities jumping on board too once they expand and are able to keep them.

 

[Zoofan15]

The problem is the region's focus is currently on Asians so there's really no reason for any zoos to shift their focus to Africans when regional cooperation is absolutely essential to our region's success with breeding programs when you take into account how many zoos we have.

With that in mind, a lot of smaller regional facilities aren't able to fund such a venture with the main government zoos all focusing on Asians at the moment and other the other smaller ones all too small for elephants in general.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes going forward. Maybe decades down the line we will see Africans return. I do think they would suit our open range zoos very well - although space would have to be weighed up between them and Asians. I could see regional facilities jumping on board too once they expand and are able to keep them.

Unfortunately, even long term, I can’t envisage African elephants making a return to the region. Every space they occupied would detract from the Asian elephant breeding programme and it’d be preferable to see the region working collectively on one species when we have such a small number of holders. Like you say, the regional zoos may be interested in holding bachelor bulls down the line; but due to the expense, it’s unlikely.

Our population of Asian elephants will never be as genetically valuable as what we have now, with multiple wild born founders (some unrepresented). We’re in a position where North America want to import our surplus; but within a few decades, these lines will be well represented over there and we will have to accomodate all elephants bred in the region.

 

[Zoofan15]

Upcoming Elephant Transfer

Thanks to @marmolady for this update:

7 News Adelaide has announced that Monarto will indeed receive two elephants from Taronga, but it is not yet decided which individuals they will be.

Taronga Zoo and Taronga Western Plains Zoo have a total of six cows:

0.1 Porntip (1992) Dubbo
0.1 Pak Boon (1992) Taronga
0.1 Thong Dee (1997) Dubbo
0.1 Tang Mo (1999) Taronga
0.1 Anjalee (2006) Dubbo
0.1 Kanlaya (2018) Dubbo

The natural choice would be Pak Boon and Thong Dee imo; though a second option I hadn’t given much thought to until now is if Anjalee is now pregnant, whether she and Thong Dee would transfer to Monarto. It’d give them a strong founder base and free up Dubbo to receive Pak Boon and Tang Mo.

 

[Jambo]

Upcoming Elephant Transfer

Thanks to @marmolady for this update:

7 News Adelaide has announced that Monarto will indeed receive two elephants from Taronga, but it is not yet decided which individuals they will be.

Taronga Zoo and Taronga Western Plains Zoo have a total of six cows:

0.1 Porntip (1992) Dubbo
0.1 Pak Boon (1992) Taronga
0.1 Thong Dee (1997) Dubbo
0.1 Tang Mo (1999) Taronga
0.1 Anjalee (2006) Dubbo
0.1 Kanlaya (2018) Dubbo

The natural choice would be Pak Boon and Thong Dee imo; though a second option I hadn’t given much thought to until now is if Anjalee is now pregnant, whether she and Thong Dee would transfer to Monarto. It’d give them a strong founder base and free up Dubbo to receive Pak Boon and Tang Mo.

Burma will be transferring over later this year followed by Putra Mas and Permai in Autumn of next year. Taking this into account, it's probably likely we won't see Taronga's elephant sent over until at least the end of 2025 (taking into account crate training).

We can rule out Kanlaya as she's Putra Mas's daughter, and also her mother, Porntip for obvious reasons. Anjalee will also have likely given birth by then (or would be heavily pregnant) if that is the case, so moving her is also probably inadvisable. She's also close with Kanlaya, so another strong reason why she should remain. Therefore there's really only three candidates; Thong Dee, Pak Boon or Tang Mo.

Sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo over makes a lot of sense, but Pak Boon is a very dominant female so this might not work if Burma and/or Permai develop a strong dominant bond initially. A pairing of Thong Dee/Tang Mo would then make more sense. But, if they deem a dominant individual is required, Pak Boon would be the go to female with either Thong Dee or Tang Mo accompanying here (depending on breeding plans re. Thong Dee).

 

[Tiger91]

Upcoming Elephant Transfer

Thanks to @marmolady for this update:

7 News Adelaide has announced that Monarto will indeed receive two elephants from Taronga, but it is not yet decided which individuals they will be.

Taronga Zoo and Taronga Western Plains Zoo have a total of six cows:

0.1 Porntip (1992) Dubbo
0.1 Pak Boon (1992) Taronga
0.1 Thong Dee (1997) Dubbo
0.1 Tang Mo (1999) Taronga
0.1 Anjalee (2006) Dubbo
0.1 Kanlaya (2018) Dubbo

The natural choice would be Pak Boon and Thong Dee imo; though a second option I hadn’t given much thought to until now is if Anjalee is now pregnant, whether she and Thong Dee would transfer to Monarto. It’d give them a strong founder base and free up Dubbo to receive Pak Boon and Tang Mo.

Moving Anjalee to Monaro I dont think they would even consider. She is going to be the next crowd puller through her offspring. Anna they literally have only just integrated her within dubs herd. Where she has good social bonds with kanlaya and porntip.

 

[Zoofan15]

Burma will be transferring over later this year followed by Putra Mas and Permai in Autumn of next year. Taking this into account, it's probably likely we won't see Taronga's elephant sent over until at least the end of 2025 (taking into account crate training).

We can rule out Kanlaya as she's Putra Mas's daughter, and also her mother, Porntip for obvious reasons. Anjalee will also have likely given birth by then (or would be heavily pregnant) if that is the case, so moving her is also probably inadvisable. She's also close with Kanlaya, so another strong reason why she should remain. Therefore there's really only three candidates; Thong Dee, Pak Boon or Tang Mo.

Sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo over makes a lot of sense, but Pak Boon is a very dominant female so this might not work if Burma and/or Permai develop a strong dominant bond initially. A pairing of Thong Dee/Tang Mo would then make more sense. But, if they deem a dominant individual is required, Pak Boon would be the go to female with either Thong Dee or Tang Mo accompanying here (depending on breeding plans re. Thong Dee).

Moving Anjalee to Monaro I dont think they would even consider. She is going to be the next crowd puller through her offspring. Anna they literally have only just integrated her within dubs herd. Where she has good social bonds with kanlaya and porntip.

I agree it’s likely the Taronga transfer would take place late 2025. As well as needing to crate train the individuals involved, they’ll want to give Burma and Permai the time to integrate, before subjecting them to two cows who will come with a bond forged over several years.

Thong Dee basically ticks all the boxes. She’s a subordinate cow with little to no breeding application in Dubbo’s herd. For the time being, she’s a viable founder, which is what Monarto need to establish a multigenerational herd. She also has no ties to the Dubbo herd (i.e. no daughters).

I would assume hierarchy will determine whether Pak Boon goes. Whether they feel her leadership is needed at Monarto to give the herd direction; or conversely, whether she’d challenge Burma (the presumed matriarch). A more subordinate cow seems likely.

While Anjalee brings value to the Dubbo herd via her relationship with Kanlaya; Tang Mo similarly dotes on calves and would surely fulfill this role just as well. Anjalee is a valuable founder cow and Monarto could maximise use of her bloodline. The decision may be determined by how far along her pregnancy is (assuming she can conceive). Theoretically she may have a calf by late 2025, but if conception isn’t achieved until next year, this may be a game changer.

 

[Tiger91]

Burma will be transferring over later this year followed by Putra Mas and Permai in Autumn of next year. Taking this into account, it's probably likely we won't see Taronga's elephant sent over until at least the end of 2025 (taking into account crate training).

We can rule out Kanlaya as she's Putra Mas's daughter, and also her mother, Porntip for obvious reasons. Anjalee will also have likely given birth by then (or would be heavily pregnant) if that is the case, so moving her is also probably inadvisable. She's also close with Kanlaya, so another strong reason why she should remain. Therefore there's really only three candidates; Thong Dee, Pak Boon or Tang Mo.

Sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo over makes a lot of sense, but Pak Boon is a very dominant female so this might not work if Burma and/or Permai develop a strong dominant bond initially. A pairing of Thong Dee/Tang Mo would then make more sense. But, if they deem a dominant individual is required, Pak Boon would be the go to female with either Thong Dee or Tang Mo accompanying here (depending on breeding plans re. Thong Dee).

It would be more beneficial to move thong dee to breed with Putra mass then to keep her at Dubbo in a non breeding situation. Even a male would be more genetically valuable with sutra mas then breeding her back to Gung or pathi harn. Tho with the occasional pop up of EEHV that seems to take out some youngsters. More breeding should be occurring or we risk loosing the program due to stagnation.

 

[Zoofan15]

It would be more beneficial to move thong dee to breed with Putra mass then to keep her at Dubbo in a non breeding situation. Even a male would be more genetically valuable with sutra mas then breeding her back to Gung or pathi harn. Tho with the occasional pop up of EEHV that seems to take out some youngsters. More breeding should be occurring or we risk loosing the program due to stagnation.

All good points. Thong Dee last gave birth in 2016, so we’re fast approaching the upper limit with regards to sterility caused by long birth intervals. It’d be incredibly short-sighted to lose a viable founder cow from the region; especially not knowing the future with regards to EEHV. It can affect elephants up to 15 years and only one of her five descendants is close to moving into the ’safe’ age bracket.

I also think it’s a great shame that space is limiting the reproductive potential of Dubbo’s herd. Two viable cows really should be sent to Monarto (as opposed to a non-viable cow such as Tang Mo), where good use can be made of them. This will leave them with three viable founder cows, a non viable cow and a juvenile cow.

 

[Tiger91]

While Anjalee brings value to the Dubbo herd via her relationship with Kanlaya; Tang Mo similarly dotes on calves and would surely fulfill this role just as well. Anjalee is a valuable founder cow and Monarto could maximise use of her bloodline. The decision may be determined by how far along her pregnancy is (assuming she can conceive). Theoretically she may have a calf by late 2025, but if conception isn’t achieved until next year, this may be a game changer.

While true, Dubbo will be looking to build a cohesive herd they can through into the future with. Anjalee kanlaya and porntip all still have breeding applications, are cohesive and already act as a cohesive herd. They are the perfect setup allowing Dubbo to breed a multigenerational herd.

Monarto receiving pakboon and thong dee gives them two founder females that they can breed with to incorporate and hopefully start a multigenerational herd. Tang Mo acting as an experienced aunt, this gives them there experienced females which will make breeding easier.

Monarto are importing 4 possibly 5 cows and a bull. Two of the cows are possibly able to breed. With 5 paddocks of memory being built. I dont see them needing to stage when the cows arrive. As they have the paddock space to accomodate multiple herds. Pakboon, tang mo and thong dee with form a herd. Which we know, as they have been one before. While the other two females can be put together to form a bond with eventual mixing of both herds done. If the paddocks are large enough there shouldn't be an issue as the females will have the space to seperate.