Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2024

[Zoofan15]

Anjalee realistically should have been the middle cow to give birth, with **** tip first, then anjalee followed by Thong dee. That way she gets to Observe something she has probably never seen or if she has, not since her infancy. A mother with a small/new born calf. Of memory Porntip is the most maternal and would set a good role model for her, and it would do kanlaya a world of good to be exposed to her mother having another baby before she herself breeds.

I was of the opinion Dubbo should have bred from Porntip prior to Anjalee producing her first calf, so she’d have exposure to observing a mother with a neonate. How much Kanlaya absorbed at the elephant orphanage prior to her import into the region is unknown; but in any case, it would compound her knowledge via watching Porntip, who is indeed the best mother in the herd. The observation of the keepers following the births of their respective calves was that Thong Dee relies more on the support of the herd to rear her calves, while Porntip takes a more active role.

It’s also important to bear in mind the first cow to give birth will be Kanlaya’s first experience of observing the maternal process. She’s grown very close to Anjalee and will be learning from this experience.

Zoos Victoria seems to be heading in the right direction with there elephants. And we will hopefully see the breeding program not go to waste on them. Dubbo, unless they start by actually investing in there elephants. We will likely see there herd slip away into a wasted capacity. Possibly this new barn is a move in the right direction, but I dont think it is. I think it's a step backwards.

I’m very optimistic about the future of Zoos Victoria’s herd. The cohort of three calves has provided endless benefits to their social development and the social structure of the herd. I had actually hoped Dubbo would have considered breeding from all three cows to generate a similar cohort to Melbourne’s; or Taronga’s from the original trio of 2.1 calves in 2009-2010.

Zoos Victoria are planning a second cohort of calves following the move to Werribee, once the cows are settled in. If they give them a year to do this, we could potentially see calves 2027/2028 - five years after the last cohort.

 

[Swanson02]

I'm going to Monarto in a couple of weeks to see Burma, it'll be packed but ill try to see what their plans for breeding are on their end

 

[Zoofan15]

I'm going to Monarto in a couple of weeks to see Burma, it'll be packed but ill try to see what their plans for breeding are on their end

Thanks @Swanson02. It’d be good to know any updates on arrival dates also and whether our assumptions are correct the plan is to introduce Burma and Permai and then bring in the Taronga females (bonded pair) from there.

If they do plan to breed from Pak Boon, would also like to know if they’re open to AI if Putra Mas can’t naturally breed.

 

[Luke899]

Just a reminder a while back during some press conferences about the elephants, zoosa did say more then once, “we want to be part of the regional breeding program”.

Either
A. Monarto has changed their plans
B. there is poor communication between monarto and Taronga
C. that keeper you spoke to @Zoofan15 isnt up to date or totally aware of monartos long terms hopes.

 

[Zoofan15]

Just a reminder a while back during some press conferences about the elephants, zoosa did say more then once, “we want to be part of the regional breeding program”.

Either
A. Monarto has changed their plans
B. there is poor communication between monarto and Taronga
C. that keeper you spoke to @Zoofan15 isnt up to date or totally aware of monarto plans.

“Being part of the regional breeding programme,” seems to have quite a loose definition when used in press conferences. It’s used to describe anything from the most genetically valuable tigress in the region, who will go on to produce several litters of cubs; to a zoo’s eighth bull giraffe calf in as many years that we all know is going to live out it’s life in a bachelor herd.

That’s not to say “being part of the regional breeding programme” is solely limited to those breeding. Non-breeding surplus need accomodating and zoos holding retirement groups or bachelor groups fulfil a role that is no less vital. I believe Sydney Zoo have made similar comments to that effect about taking part in the breeding programme. They have two young bulls and will likely never breed; but a decade from now and one of those bulls could be transfered somewhere to sire calves (my money’s on Werribee).

The keeper that myself and @steveroberts spoke to seemed knowledgeable about the region’s elephants in that he made reference to Putra Mas not being a proven breeder and the Monarto complex not being equipped for calves in the current state. That’s not to say that won’t change and @Swanson02 can hopefully get an indication either way on his visit later this month. I really hope they’re open to breeding considering they’ll be receiving the region’s most genetically valuable viable bull and cow.

 

[steveroberts]

@Zoofan15

To be fair to you man, you were the one with the smarts to ask him the right questions you knew were important and many members on here were/are keen to know too, when he was finished with his work. I just stood-by drinking a cup of coffee and listening lol (and the one thing I personally 'asked him' was more a clunkily worded statement than a question lol, just repeating back to him something he already had said about Permai's and Putra Mas's specially tailored travel-crates having arrived for them in Perth, as an awkward way of trying to let him know was also interested in the discussion hahaha).

So glad you had the foresight in that moment to ask him the questions you did, as he was coming by after his specific work in that timeframe and was free to stop and talk and answer on what he knew (he was a really nice guy hey).

 

[Yassa]

My take on this is that the keepers answer of ‚not being aware of breeding plans‘ could also mean that they did not want to give any information. ‚I‘m not aware‘ does not mean there are no breeding plans, and if the person you asked did not want to give any information on this, this is the answer I‘d expect without telling that they aren’t allowed to discuss this in public and without outright lying (in case there ARE breeding plans). So this can mean anything.

 

[steveroberts]

My take on this is that the keepers answer of ‚not being aware of breeding plans‘ could also mean that they did not want to give any information. ‚I‘m not aware‘ does not mean there are no breeding plans, and if the person you asked did not want to give any information on this, this is the answer I‘d expect without telling that they aren’t allowed to discuss this in public and without outright lying (in case there ARE breeding plans). So this can mean anything.

He was very open and happy to share his knowledge of what he knew about the plans with us. There was no 'closed book' vibe about him with information, very happy to talk and share what he knew and friendly.

 

[Jambo]

“Being part of the regional breeding programme,” seems to have quite a loose definition when used in press conferences. It’s used to describe anything from the most genetically valuable tigress in the region, who will go on to produce several litters of cubs; to a zoo’s eighth bull giraffe calf in as many years that we all know is going to live out it’s life in a bachelor herd.

Monarto could still theoretically be 'participating in the regional breeding program' by holding these supposedly non breeding individuals, so this statement should be taken with a grain of salt!

Technically every zoo that holds a certain species that is being bred regionally is still operating apart of the regional program, ie. a facility holding bachelor males.

 

[Zoofan15]

Monarto could still theoretically be 'participating in the regional breeding program' by holding these supposedly non breeding individuals, so this statement should be taken with a grain of salt!

Technically every zoo that holds a certain species that is being bred regionally is still operating apart of the regional program, ie. a facility holding bachelor males.

It’ll be interesting to see if/when the Sydney bulls go into a breeding placement.

The representation of the other (contributing) founder bulls is as follows:

1.0 Bong Su (deceased): 4.1 (2.1 surviving)
1.0 Putra Mas (living): 0.2 (0.1 surviving)
1.0 Gung (living): 4.3.1 (3.2.1 surviving)

Bong Su obviously won’t be siring more offspring; there’s uncertainty over Putra Mas’ ability to naturally sire calves and Gung is becoming well represented with what will hopefully be his sixth surviving descendant due late 2025 (with his son Luk Chai intended to sire another cohort of calves at Werribee).

I was hopeful Pathi Harn was going to be used to sire Anjalee’s calf as he’s the only remaining son of Bong Su in the region and his mother only has one other offspring - a six year old female. At Werribee, he could breed with Dokkoon, Num-Oi; and once mature, Aiyara and Kati. Since he’s Mali’s half-brother, Werribee would require an unrelated mate for her still and it seems unlikely they’d want an additional bull on site given their capacity.

With the above in mind, it seems probable one of the Dublin/Sydney bulls would be Werribee’s future breeding bull. It will lessen the value of Australian bred calves to the international breeding programme; but to date, only one Australian bred elephant has been exported and their appears to be no interest in exporting Sabai, who realistically has little application to the breeding programme.

 

[Jambo]

It’ll be interesting to see if/when the Sydney bulls go into a breeding placement.

The representation of the other (contributing) founder bulls is as follows:

1.0 Bong Su (deceased): 4.1 (2.1 surviving)
1.0 Putra Mas (living): 0.2 (0.1 surviving)
1.0 Gung (living): 4.3.1 (3.2.1 surviving)

Bong Su obviously won’t be siring more offspring; there’s uncertainty over Putra Mas’ ability to naturally sire calves and Gung is becoming well represented with what will hopefully be his sixth surviving descendant due late 2025 (with his son Luk Chai intended to sire another cohort of calves at Werribee).

I was hopeful Pathi Harn was going to be used to sire Anjalee’s calf as he’s the only remaining son of Bong Su in the region and his mother only has one other offspring - a six year old female. At Werribee, he could breed with Dokkoon, Num-Oi; and once mature, Aiyara and Kati. Since he’s Mali’s half-brother, Werribee would require an unrelated mate for her still and it seems unlikely they’d want an additional bull on site given their capacity.

With the above in mind, it seems probable one of the Dublin/Sydney bulls would be Werribee’s future breeding bull. It will lessen the value of Australian bred calves to the international breeding programme; but to date, only one Australian bred elephant has been exported and their appears to be no interest in exporting Sabai, who realistically has little application to the breeding programme.

Realistically it's likely we can only guarantee one of the bulls will be utilised as a breeding bull (with the other remaining as a contingency).

Werribee will theoretically be in need of a new bull if they only wish to breed from Luk Chai once more (which seems likely). He'll however still be kept on site as a back up and mentor for the calves; a role he performs well in. It seems the easiest route to go afterwards would indeed be to obtain one of the Sydney bulls.

Dubbo has Gung, and he can still breed with all breeding cows going forward until he has a female calf of his own. And even then, it'll be a decade before that female calf would need another unrelated bull on site to breed.

So if Werribee wish to obtain one of the Sydney bulls, it will likely be in around five or so years. If Werribee elect not to (and instead import), Dubbo would likely snatch one up around a decade later.

Regarding Pathi Harn, I imagine he will also have application breeding at Dubbo in the long term. Likely with Thong Dee or any future daughters (if she is to continue breeding), or Anjalee's line.

 

[Zoofan15]

Realistically it's likely we can only guarantee one of the bulls will be utilised as a breeding bull (with the other remaining as a contingency).

Werribee will theoretically be in need of a new bull if they only wish to breed from Luk Chai once more (which seems likely). He'll however still be kept on site as a back up and mentor for the calves; a role he performs well in. It seems the easiest route to go afterwards would indeed be to obtain one of the Sydney bulls.

Dubbo has Gung, and he can still breed with all breeding cows going forward until he has a female calf of his own. And even then, it'll be a decade before that female calf would need another unrelated bull on site to breed.

So if Werribee wish to obtain one of the Sydney bulls, it will likely be in around five or so years. If Werribee elect not to (and instead import), Dubbo would likely snatch one up around a decade later.

Regarding Pathi Harn, I imagine he will also have application breeding at Dubbo in the long term. Likely with Thong Dee or any future daughters (if she is to continue breeding), or Anjalee's line.

Unless the Sydney bulls are to be dispersed to Dubbo and Werribee, which I’d consider unlikely due to them being half-brothers, I’d agree it’s probable only one of them would transfer out into a breeding situation.

When I spoke to the Melbourne keepers, they said welfare would underpin any decision made to transfer Luk Chai out and they were open to him retiring/remaining on site after he has fulfilled his role in siring a second cohort of calves. They said he could even play a role in mentoring the new bull.

From the public presentation I attended last month, it was mentioned that Werribee will have two bull paddocks, allowing management of these bulls separately. It’ll be interesting to see if Roi-Yim remains at Werribee long term. Subsequent bull calves could see him head up a small bachelor herd/pair, which regionally have remained successful into at least adolescence (Luk Chai and Man Jai; Sydney’s bulls).

Imports from Europe would be ideal long term, ideally from a line unrelated to the Sydney bulls.

 

[Zorro]

Realistically it's likely we can only guarantee one of the bulls will be utilised as a breeding bull (with the other remaining as a contingency).

Werribee will theoretically be in need of a new bull if they only wish to breed from Luk Chai once more (which seems likely). He'll however still be kept on site as a back up and mentor for the calves; a role he performs well in. It seems the easiest route to go afterwards would indeed be to obtain one of the Sydney bulls.

Dubbo has Gung, and he can still breed with all breeding cows going forward until he has a female calf of his own. And even then, it'll be a decade before that female calf would need another unrelated bull on site to breed.

So if Werribee wish to obtain one of the Sydney bulls, it will likely be in around five or so years. If Werribee elect not to (and instead import), Dubbo would likely snatch one up around a decade later.

Regarding Pathi Harn, I imagine he will also have application breeding at Dubbo in the long term. Likely with Thong Dee or any future daughters (if she is to continue breeding), or Anjalee's line.

I believe Monarto zoo would do well to import two unrelated cows with the view to future breeding and also to become a third hub for breeding in the region. I do believe they should try to breed the incoming Sydney cow to try and kick start breeding from the start.

 

[Zoofan15]

I believe Monarto zoo would do well to import two unrelated cows with the view to future breeding and also to become a third hub for breeding in the region. I do believe they should try to breed the incoming Sydney cow to try and kick start breeding from the start.

Their introductions of four cows from three herds will be complex enough without bringing in an additional two cows.

We all agree it would be good to see them breed from Pak Boon, who is a viable unrepresented founder. I’m hopeful if she does breed that she could even have calves at natural birth intervals given she’d be the only cow breeding.

 

[Tiger91]

Unless the Sydney bulls are to be dispersed to Dubbo and Werribee, which I’d consider unlikely due to them being half-brothers, I’d agree it’s probable only one of them would transfer out into a breeding situation.

When I spoke to the Melbourne keepers, they said welfare would underpin any decision made to transfer Luk Chai out and they were open to him retiring/remaining on site after he has fulfilled his role in siring a second cohort of calves. They said he could even play a role in mentoring the new bull.

From the public presentation I attended last month, it was mentioned that Werribee will have two bull paddocks, allowing management of these bulls separately. It’ll be interesting to see if Roi-Yim remains at Werribee long term. Subsequent bull calves could see him head up a small bachelor herd/pair, which regionally have remained successful into at least adolescence (Luk Chai and Man Jai; Sydney’s bulls).

Imports from Europe would be ideal long term, ideally from a line unrelated to the Sydney bulls.

With the size of werribees complex, how we house and handle bulls needs to be addressed. Bulls are not solitary in the wild and often live in loosely bonded bachelor groups. Until musth occurs then they will typically come back together. Having two bull paddocks with the size that they are and the extra smaller paddocks. There is no reason Werribee could not handle far more then two bulls.

Especially if they use the smaller holding yards to hold the bulls while is musth then reintergrate them into the larger paddocks when they are out of it.

 

[Zoofan15]

With the size of werribees complex, how we house and handle bulls needs to be addressed. Bulls are not solitary in the wild and often live in loosely bonded bachelor groups. Until musth occurs then they will typically come back together. Having two bull paddocks with the size that they are and the extra smaller paddocks. There is no reason Werribee could not handle far more then two bulls.

Especially if they use the smaller holding yards to hold the bulls while is musth then reintergrate them into the larger paddocks when they are out of it.

The capacity will still be limited by the bull barn, which will have the space to accommodate two bulls separately. That’s not to say bulls can’t/won’t mix but this is very much dependent on personality.

Both Luk Chai and Pathi Harn were wary of Gung, especially when he was in musth. Neither of them were housed with Gung for an extended period of time. Luk Chai and Pathi Harn grew up together, but Pathi Harn had a forceful personality and their contact was limited to 2-3 sessions a week by the end of Luk Chai’s time there.

Man Jai was more fiery than the docile Luk Chai, but due to their age difference, they were safely housed together the majority of their time at Melbourne; and got on exceptionally well. Luk Chai was an ideal mentor and will surely fulfill that role just as well to Roi-Yim, albeit with separation required when Luk Chai is in musth. He was undergoing moda (adolescent) musth when I was in Melbourne end of last year but wasn’t having full musth cycles at that point.

 

[Zorro]

With the size of werribees complex, how we house and handle bulls needs to be addressed. Bulls are not solitary in the wild and often live in loosely bonded bachelor groups. Until musth occurs then they will typically come back together. Having two bull paddocks with the size that they are and the extra smaller paddocks. There is no reason Werribee could not handle far more then two bulls.

Especially if they use the smaller holding yards to hold the bulls while is musth then reintergrate them into the larger paddocks when they are out of it.

Absolutely correct, I have seen off view areas with zoos holding multiple bulls with no problem and there would be no real reason why Werribee could not do the same as a breeding centre/zoo

 

[Jambo]

Both Luk Chai and Pathi Harn were wary of Gung, especially when he was in musth. Neither of them were housed with Gung for an extended period of time. Luk Chai and Pathi Harn grew up together, but Pathi Harn had a forceful personality and their contact was limited to 2-3 sessions a week by the end of Luk Chai’s time there.

Right on the money. Luk Chai is a very rare example of a bull who was able to co exist quite often with other juvenile/mature bulls. Other bulls, like Gung prefer to spend most of their time alone only interacting with the other bulls on very few occasions. Even then the interactions would be completely different to those a bull like Luk Chai would engage in (such as play).

It's also rare to have bulls be able to cohabit with each other often (especially in the presence of cows). Most facilities with designated bachelor herds don't have cows on site, and so musth periods are really the only time were separation is required, whether they get along or not.

 

[Trua]

Other bulls, like Gung prefer to spend most of their time alone only interacting with the other bulls on very few occasions. Even then the interactions would be completely different to those a bull like Luk Chai would engage in (such as play).

I do know most of Gung's weeks are indeed spent on his lonesome. It comes down to his choice. Occasionally he is in with Sabai now, but not for long. The young fella seems to get on his nerves rather quickly!

 

[Zoofan15]

I do know most of Gung's weeks are indeed spent on his lonesome. It comes down to his choice. Occasionally he is in with Sabai now, but not for long. The young fella seems to get on his nerves rather quickly!

I heard when Pathi Harn and Luk Chai were spending time with the matriarchal herd (which contained the then juveniles Sabai and Kanlaya) both were keen to return to their paddocks after an hour or so.

Luk Chai was still spending time with Gung up until his transfer to Melbourne; and had been visiting him since he was a calf at Taronga. Pathi Harn was nervous of the trailer apparently (used to transport the elephants after the move to PC in 2012), so didn’t participate in visits to Gung.